The story on sports radio this afternoon is that 220 lb Kevin Durant, expected to be the 1 or 2 pick in the NBA draft, failed to bench 185 lbs for even 1 rep at whatever the NBA calls their rookie combine. Lord knows he can play basketball, but shouldn't an elite athlete who has spent a year at Texas, with a strength coach, be able to bench 85% of their body weight? I'll bet Dos's girls can.
__________________ 'I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. ' ~Frank Sinatra
WARNING: The consumption of alcohol may create the illusion that you are tougher,
smarter, faster and better looking than most people.
__________________
"The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me."
Ayn Rand
"Once you've taken a few punches and realise you're not made of glass, you don't feel alive unless you're
pushing yourself as far as you can go." Matt Buckner - Green Street Hooligans
Todd Wright and his staff at Texas are absolutely fantastic S&C coaches - and there is a lot more to S&C than just benching. While I certainly think this is something that every male athlete should be able to do, it would do a disservice to Todd (and Kevin) to ignore everything they've done right in his situation. Todd gave a fantastic presentation (largely about Kevin) at Perform Better in Chicago that goes into great detail on a lot of the stuff they've done to best make use of his natural abilities while minimizing injury risk and bulletproofing him for the long haul.
In a nutshell, Todd is the only S&C guy I know who is incorporating Gary Gray's philosophies specifically outside the rehab realm - and it is NOT an easy thing to do (mostly 1-on-1 and 1-on-2 training all day). I give him credit for deviating from the norm - and his guys obviously give him credit, as he is notorious for having fantastic rapport with his players and head coach. I don't believe they bench at all, to be honest.
As perhaps the best testament to my interest in what he does, I'm planning to visit him and Tim Skwiat in Austin later this year on the same visit I catch up with Robertson/Hartman in Indy and Chris Doyle at U-Iowa.
This actually happened in 2003 with TJ Ford, too, FYI.
Edit: Best bench I've ever seen in a basketball guy over 6-4 is 300 pounds - and he got a $39 million contract (is 6-11, too).
Todd Wright and his staff at Texas are absolutely fantastic S&C coaches - and there is a lot more to S&C than just benching. While I certainly think this is something that every male athlete should be able to do, it would do a disservice to Todd (and Kevin) to ignore everything they've done right in his situation. Todd gave a fantastic presentation (largely about Kevin) at Perform Better in Chicago that goes into great detail on a lot of the stuff they've done to best make use of his natural abilities while minimizing injury risk and bulletproofing him for the long haul.
In a nutshell, Todd is the only S&C guy I know who is incorporating Gary Gray's philosophies specifically outside the rehab realm - and it is NOT an easy thing to do (mostly 1-on-1 and 1-on-2 training all day). I give him credit for deviating from the norm - and his guys obviously give him credit, as he is notorious for having fantastic rapport with his players and head coach. I don't believe they bench at all, to be honest.
As perhaps the best testament to my interest in what he does, I'm planning to visit him and Tim Skwiat in Austin later this year on the same visit I catch up with Robertson/Hartman in Indy and Chris Doyle at U-Iowa.
This actually happened in 2003 with TJ Ford, too, FYI.
Edit: Best bench I've ever seen in a basketball guy over 6-4 is 300 pounds - and he got a $39 million contract (is 6-11, too).
I don't consider his inablilty to bench is a reflection of the Texas S&C Program. They can't do the work for him but he is a D1 athlete and should be able to bench press more than that.
Asy idea how much Karl Malone could bench press? I remember reading that he was a fairly strong guy but I don't recall numbers.
__________________
"The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me."
Ayn Rand
"Once you've taken a few punches and realise you're not made of glass, you don't feel alive unless you're
pushing yourself as far as you can go." Matt Buckner - Green Street Hooligans
I don't consider his inablilty to bench is a reflection of the Texas S&C Program. They can't do the work for him but he is a D1 athlete and should be able to bench press more than that.
Why should he be able to? Since when does being a D1 athlete mean being able to bench press? In his sport, it really doesn't matter. How does the bench press relate to what he does on the floor? As Eric said, they worked with him on things that take advantage of his abilities and reduce injuries. He's a great athlete nonetheless, and it doesn't matter what he bench presses. It obviously hasn't hurt him on the floor.
I don't agree with how they do these things, at least in terms of lifting, at the combines/workouts. Like at the NFL combine, they see how many times you can bench 225 lbs. IMHO, that is a measure of muscle endurance, not necessarily strength.
__________________ If your dog is fat, you aren't getting enough exercise. -Unknown
There is a big debate at T-rag about the NHL draft combine and how some of the teen hockey guys are benching 150lbs only 10-12 reps. Hockey is all about legs and having the soft hands for puck control. These kids have little time for weight rooms with school, practice, jobs, etc, at least in Canada.
I wasn't thinking about picking on the Texas S+C staff, obviously they do something right with their athletic programs. I'm just really surprised that a forward, at an elite level, wouldn't have more upper body strength than that.
__________________ 'I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. ' ~Frank Sinatra
WARNING: The consumption of alcohol may create the illusion that you are tougher,
smarter, faster and better looking than most people.
I wasn't thinking about picking on the Texas S+C staff, obviously they do something right with their athletic programs. I'm just really surprised that a forward, at an elite level, wouldn't have more upper body strength than that.
A question: is bench press the best measure of upper body strength for a basketball player?
I am not so sure.
__________________ If your dog is fat, you aren't getting enough exercise. -Unknown
A question: is bench press the best measure of upper body strength for a basketball player?
Maybe not. I'd think a series of tests such as bench, chin-ups, shoulder press would be better, though I'd be surprised if the results were much different.
__________________ 'I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. ' ~Frank Sinatra
WARNING: The consumption of alcohol may create the illusion that you are tougher,
smarter, faster and better looking than most people.
You can't judge a coach based on the way one of his athletes performs one movement. That's ridiculous. Especially when that one movement isn't the focus of their training.
You also can't judge the athlete based on the way he performs one movement. Especially if that one movement is the bench press, and the athlete plays basketball.
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Zach Even-Esh
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-Dave Tate
There is a big debate at T-rag about the NHL draft combine and how some of the teen hockey guys are benching 150lbs only 10-12 reps. Hockey is all about legs and having the soft hands for puck control. These kids have little time for weight rooms with school, practice, jobs, etc, at least in Canada.
Most guys getting drafted into the NHL are 17-20 years old with little time in the gym... and only weigh about 170lbs at best. Look at the best rookie player this year (crosby) I doubt that dude cant bench 135lbs.. but it doesnt matter.
I find that debate over there pretty funny, I know quite a few people who are on their way to the NHL and a handful of people who play 4th line occasionally, none of them are 'strong' like that. But all great athletes.
Bench Press is more of an ego lift then anything when it comes to most sports. Even something like football where a lineman has horizontal pressing involved, I bet the push press or something of the like would have more carryover.
Why should he be able to? Since when does being a D1 athlete mean being able to bench press? In his sport, it really doesn't matter. How does the bench press relate to what he does on the floor? As Eric said, they worked with him on things that take advantage of his abilities and reduce injuries. He's a great athlete nonetheless, and it doesn't matter what he bench presses. It obviously hasn't hurt him on the floor.
I don't agree with how they do these things, at least in terms of lifting, at the combines/workouts. Like at the NFL combine, they see how many times you can bench 225 lbs. IMHO, that is a measure of muscle endurance, not necessarily strength.
I'm not saying he should be able to bench press a small truck but to me an elite level athlete should be able to bench press his own body weight. I also understand that bench press has very little carry over into his sport but 185 is not a lot of weight.
__________________
"The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me."
Ayn Rand
"Once you've taken a few punches and realise you're not made of glass, you don't feel alive unless you're
pushing yourself as far as you can go." Matt Buckner - Green Street Hooligans
I'm not saying he should be able to bench press a small truck but to me an elite level athlete should be able to bench press his own body weight. I also understand that bench press has very little carry over into his sport but 185 is not a lot of weight.
Depends 100% on the sport..
Does an elite marathon runner need to be able to bench 185lbs? Nope.
Does a lineman? I sure hope so.
I must say though, im a little surprised with 185lbs, for alot of people that seems to be the weight they get the first time ever pressing.
Apparently lack of strength is one of his biggest weaknesses on the court.
Quote:
Weaknesses: His (lack of) stength is his major weakness, and he really needs to put on weight or he wont be able to do much in the NBA except shoot deep 3s or score in transition like Darius Miles of 4 years ago ...
__________________ 'I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. ' ~Frank Sinatra
WARNING: The consumption of alcohol may create the illusion that you are tougher,
smarter, faster and better looking than most people.
I don't consider his inablilty to bench is a reflection of the Texas S&C Program. They can't do the work for him but he is a D1 athlete and should be able to bench press more than that.
Asy idea how much Karl Malone could bench press? I remember reading that he was a fairly strong guy but I don't recall numbers.
The "Mailman" never let anyone know his numbers - I remember a story in Sports Illustrated about him where he adamantly refused to reveal any of his max lift amounts. Never did say why.
We also need to think about leverage in a situation like this.
Durant's wingspan is riiiiiiiiidiculous. Not surprising he can't bench much. It's got to travel a long way. (the reverse with the aforementioned Boykins. he's a shrimp.)
Not excusing the fact that he can't bench 185, but I think that needs to be thought about.
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Quoth David Banner: "Like a pimp"
It's not a beer belly. It's a gas tank for a sax machine.
Why should he be able to? Since when does being a D1 athlete mean being able to bench press? In his sport, it really doesn't matter. How does the bench press relate to what he does on the floor? As Eric said, they worked with him on things that take advantage of his abilities and reduce injuries. He's a great athlete nonetheless, and it doesn't matter what he bench presses. It obviously hasn't hurt him on the floor.
I don't agree with how they do these things, at least in terms of lifting, at the combines/workouts. Like at the NFL combine, they see how many times you can bench 225 lbs. IMHO, that is a measure of muscle endurance, not necessarily strength.
Nobody has answered this question. Why does a basketball player need to bench some certain amount?
The bench press (those with more knowledge please correct me if I am wrong) seems to have a pretty good crossover to football. Lineman have to push each other out of the way. Sure, it's not perfect correlation, but it's there. 225 seems like an arbitrary number but if you could bench 225 more times I would imagine that you could push away a defender more often than someone who benched less times than you did.
There is still some correlation in basketball--fighting for a rebound--but it's much less than in football.
__________________
Quoth David Banner: "Like a pimp"
It's not a beer belly. It's a gas tank for a sax machine.
Nobody has answered this question. Why does a basketball player need to bench some certain amount?
Self defense, with the guys I play with.
__________________ 'I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. ' ~Frank Sinatra
WARNING: The consumption of alcohol may create the illusion that you are tougher,
smarter, faster and better looking than most people.
Kevin Durant can't bench 185 lbs, but like Nick said, his arms are ridicuously long. Due to them being longer, it makes it harder for him to bench because the bar would have to travel further.
But how does the bench relate to basketball, especially Durant being a Small Forward (think Tayshawn Prince), think Prince can bench 185? Doubt it. And if he could bench a massive ammount (Ben Wallace [500 lbs bench]) think it'd benefit him anymore in getting to the rim? Doubt it.
The Oregonian has secured the official weights, measurements and testing results from the Orlando predraft camp, and wait until you get a load of the freak of nature called Greg Oden.
For starters, his numbers blow Kevin Durant out of the water.
There are several startling revelations in the numbers, and the one that immediately pops out is the bench press. Players were rated on how many times they could bench press 185 pounds. Oden didn't attempt the bench press in order to prevent an injury to his right wrist, which has recently recovered from injury.
But get this: Only one player was unable to bench press 185 even once - Kevin Durant.
There is more.
Oden is faster than Durant in the 3/4-court sprint, quicker in the lane-agility drill, and has better numbers in the running and standing vertical leaps. And, Oden has a mind-boggling 7.8 body-fat percentage ... most big men are north of the 12 percent range. For instance, other top-rated big men such as Washington's Spencer Hawes (13.0), Duke's Josh McRoberts (13.7) and Pitt's Aaron Gray (10.8) don't compare.
Let's get to the specifics.
Oden is 6-foot-11 without shoes, 7-feet with shoes.
He weighs 257 pounds.
His wingspan is 7 feet, 4.25 inches (fourth best in the draft). His standing reach is 9 feet, 4 inches (the highest of anyone in the draft). His standing vertical is 32 inches, his running vertical 34 inches.
The lane agility drill, where a player runs through cones alternating between running backward, sideways and forward, is 11.67 seconds. And his 3/4 court sprint was 3.27 seconds.
The thing that jumps out is Oden's speed and agility.
We all know Oregon's Aaron Brooks is fast. Brooks finished the 3/4 court sprint in 3.2 seconds. Oden was 3.27 seconds. Durant, meanwhile, finished in 3.45.
Oden's 11.67 in the agility drill speaks volumes to the footwork so many scouts rave about. Durant did the same drill in 12.33.
Durant's specifics are as follows:
Height: 6-foot-9 without shoes, 6-foot-10.25 with shoes. Weight: 215.
Wing span: 7-foot-4.75 (second longest in the draft - Maryland's Ekene Ibekwe is 7-6). Standing reach: 9-2.
Body fat: 6.6. Standing vertical jump: 26.0 inches; running vertical jump, 33.5 inches. Lane agility: 12.33 seconds and 3/4 court sprint, 3.45 seconds.
Portland general manager Kevin Pritchard declined to comment on the numbers, in part because he had just received them himself.
But really, there is no need for comment. The numbers speak volumes.
Todd gave a fantastic presentation (largely about Kevin) at Perform Better in Chicago that goes into great detail on a lot of the stuff they've done to best make use of his natural abilities while minimizing injury risk and bulletproofing him for the long haul.
I am not here to be a critic on the program at U Texas but I am confused in what is bulletproofing when you have an 18 year old athlete that looks very thin in my eyes. While you don't need a bench press to get more muscle mass on the upper body but what hapened to the Karl Malone offseason example? Perhaps other factors didn't allow for such a change. With only a year with the young man it's hard to get much done with a long season.
Shaun livingston was plagued with injuries and was similar in build. I guess the Gary Gray stuff will focus more on the other factors besides "maximal strength". I think some classic structural lifts would be good for him as functional muscle mass works.
No matter how great the software (motor programs) the hardware (structural development) must be there. The kid is 18 and left early for the NBA. He may have the ability but he doesn't seem to be matured physically.
Todd gave a fantastic presentation (largely about Kevin) at Perform Better in Chicago that goes into great detail on a lot of the stuff they've done to best make use of his natural abilities while minimizing injury risk and bulletproofing him for the long haul.
I am not here to be a critic on the program at U Texas but I am confused in what is bulletproofing when you have an 18 year old athlete that looks very thin in my eyes. While you don't need a bench press to get more muscle mass on the upper body but what hapened to the Karl Malone offseason example? Perhaps other factors didn't allow for such a change. With only a year with the young man it's hard to get much done with a long season.
Shaun livingston was plagued with injuries and was similar in build. I guess the Gary Gray stuff will focus more on the other factors besides "maximal strength". I think some classic structural lifts would be good for him as functional muscle mass works.
No matter how great the software (motor programs) the hardware (structural development) must be there. The kid is 18 and left early for the NBA. He may have the ability but he doesn't seem to be matured physically.
C -
I can completely see your viewpoint - and it's something I would have said myself had I not been "in the know" to some extent on this. Durant still needs a LOT of work (ranked near the bottom on all the tests):
What I DO know is that weight-training in the college basketball world is an difficult culture. They probably got Kevin at the end of August, at which point he started balling 4-5 hours a day with his teammates and then jumped right into the season as Midnight Madness rolled around. Then, you have a long season - October to March - and then a quick few months to prep guys for the combine. And, this isn't NFL combine prep; they're racing all over the place to play at invitational tournaments and (up until this year) playing for teams (the NBA isn't allowing teams to work out individual players until after the finals this year for the first time).
Todd alluded to some very specific foot issues Kevin had when he walked in, and they took quite a bit of time and effort to resolve. That wouldn't interfere with benching, of course, but it certainly takes up quite a bit of time in an already-time-crunched collegiate S&C environment.
Plus, at 6-9 with long limbs, you can pack 15 pounds on a guy and not even notice a difference.
Still, he ought to be benching over 200 - no doubt about it.
The Oregonian has secured the official weights, measurements and testing results from the Orlando predraft camp, and wait until you get a load of the freak of nature called Greg Oden.
For starters, his numbers blow Kevin Durant out of the water.
There are several startling revelations in the numbers, and the one that immediately pops out is the bench press. Players were rated on how many times they could bench press 185 pounds. Oden didn't attempt the bench press in order to prevent an injury to his right wrist, which has recently recovered from injury.
But get this: Only one player was unable to bench press 185 even once - Kevin Durant.
There is more.
Oden is faster than Durant in the 3/4-court sprint, quicker in the lane-agility drill, and has better numbers in the running and standing vertical leaps. And, Oden has a mind-boggling 7.8 body-fat percentage ... most big men are north of the 12 percent range. For instance, other top-rated big men such as Washington's Spencer Hawes (13.0), Duke's Josh McRoberts (13.7) and Pitt's Aaron Gray (10.8) don't compare.
Let's get to the specifics.
Oden is 6-foot-11 without shoes, 7-feet with shoes.
He weighs 257 pounds.
His wingspan is 7 feet, 4.25 inches (fourth best in the draft). His standing reach is 9 feet, 4 inches (the highest of anyone in the draft). His standing vertical is 32 inches, his running vertical 34 inches.
The lane agility drill, where a player runs through cones alternating between running backward, sideways and forward, is 11.67 seconds. And his 3/4 court sprint was 3.27 seconds.
The thing that jumps out is Oden's speed and agility.
We all know Oregon's Aaron Brooks is fast. Brooks finished the 3/4 court sprint in 3.2 seconds. Oden was 3.27 seconds. Durant, meanwhile, finished in 3.45.
Oden's 11.67 in the agility drill speaks volumes to the footwork so many scouts rave about. Durant did the same drill in 12.33.
Durant's specifics are as follows:
Height: 6-foot-9 without shoes, 6-foot-10.25 with shoes. Weight: 215.
Wing span: 7-foot-4.75 (second longest in the draft - Maryland's Ekene Ibekwe is 7-6). Standing reach: 9-2.
Body fat: 6.6. Standing vertical jump: 26.0 inches; running vertical jump, 33.5 inches. Lane agility: 12.33 seconds and 3/4 court sprint, 3.45 seconds.
Portland general manager Kevin Pritchard declined to comment on the numbers, in part because he had just received them himself.
But really, there is no need for comment. The numbers speak volumes.
Believe it or not, to me, the single most impressive part of Oden's performance is the similarity between his standing VJ and approach VJ. The huge difference on Durant's tells me that he's still a street-baller from a static-spring standpoint; he's got a huge window of adaptation that'll occur with some added maximal strength (deficit between the two will go down, and he'll get even better as his standing VJ goes up).
Oden's, on the other hand, is very similar. Look at his awesome lane-agility score, and you'll see that he's got greet footwork, something you typically see in a guy with solid reactive ability. Put great footwork in a combination with standing and approach VJ scores that are very similar, and you've got a tremendous blend to build a beast big man. Emeka was this way, and a lot of people credit it in part to the fact that he was a soccer player growing up.
I predict that Oden will be a 20-10-3 (points-rebounds-blocks) by his second year in the league.
Nobody has answered this question. Why does a basketball player need to bench some certain amount?
If you read the link I posted there are numerous references to why his lack of strength is a hindrance on the court.
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Body strength doesn’t allow him to finish after contact …
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Gets pushed out rather easily on rebounds due to his body strength
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Adding weight will make him more aggressive inside, as he tends to shy away from contact and can be pushed around and affected when played physical…
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His (lack of) strength is his major weakness, and he really needs to put on weight or he wont be able to do much in the NBA except shoot deep 3s or score in transition...
While they are not specific to bench press strength, as his strength increases in general, I would expect his bench to go up as well. I don't expect him to start benching 400lbs, but any pro basketball player should have better overall strength.
PPS - Those BF% numbers are, again, ridiculously off. We tested an entire team of D1 basketball athletes on a DEXA in '05 (seven are now playing pro ball) and the leanest one was 7.9% (7.7% by the end of the season). Another was 10.0% on the dot, and the rest were over 10%.
If Jared Dudley is 7.1%, I am one of the Olsen twins.
No matter how great the program I just don't see how much can be done with his situation. Again an 18 year old ectomorph isn't going to be very strong so not matter what the coach knows it's all about context.
Kevin Durant Bench Press
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