Layout\Format\Binding
The biggest separator between these two books is that NROL is hardback vs. the soft back of ML. The paper quality is similar, the design is similar, the pictures are the same black and white, they’re close
The SECOND separator which isn’t entirely obvious at first glance is that ML has 63 pages of content at 220pg book. That other 150pgs are examples of workouts with a picture of a dude doing them. That’s a LOT of example folks.
Content Usability
Both are very accessible and anyone that picks them up should be able to use them. At the heart of things the books are supposed to present workout plans and they both do.
Thoughts:
I think I'm the one person on the planet that “got” EDT on T-Nation. Muscle Logic explains it a little further and hand holds if you just can't figure out what a non-competing super set is, past that it doesn't have anything to offer. It does what it set out to do and it's a very reasonable price. If you want to add EDT to your list of tools, go ahead and pick it up. If you're expecting anything beyond what you've already read then you're going to be disappointed. There really wasn't enough content to warrant a book and that's painfully obvious in the 150pgs of two exercise per page examples. The real kicker to this one is that the workouts will burn you out. It says they will. So you're not going to use the “system” for more than about 8 weeks at a go, then you have to find something else. For a generic mass published book this is crazy. I'd much rather see a far more detailed application level EDT manual with specific instruction on when\why\how to use the system than this watered down book that warns that by following simple instructions you're going to push yourself too hard.
NROL is more complete in the aspect that it includes energy system work, nutrition (neither of which are included in ML), and routines for Strength, Hypertrophy, Fat Loss. There isn't a feeling that the information is stretched or tossed in as filler. The book presents the workouts in a modular fashion so you can mix and match as you want to giving what could be workouts for the rest of your life.
Closing:
NROL wins this matchup hands down. For the price ML is a reasonable buy. Don't confuse that with “good”. NROL is “good”. It'll give 90% of the people everything that they need to have a lifestyle change for the better with interesting reading and programming.
Thanks Gobbla! Many times these books are only availalbe online or aren't readily stocked at the BNs closest to me. I don't mind putting out money on good products, but it adds up and if they aren't helpful, it adds up with pain.
__________________ 'I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. ' ~Frank Sinatra
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One question, though: what led you to pair these two books? Are they really targeted to the same audience?
I'd say NROL is intended for the beginner or typical gym-goer who hasn't read much about training before (not that intermediate/advanced won't gain quite a bit from the book, too), while ML give me the impression it's more for the person who has trained consistently for a while and wants a different program to change things up.
__________________ The trick is in what one emphasizes. We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same. -- Carlos Castaneda
I really liked the EDT workouts but I also found the book to be short on content. I guess that is what I liked about the whole system is that it works and it is just not that complex. On the other hand it would be pretty difficult to stay on the NROL program and not have the book as your guide. Nice review of the books and as far as the workouts go I guess it would come down to different strokes for . . .
__________________ -50# by 4/1/10 2 down 48 to go.
One question, though: what led you to pair these two books? Are they really targeted to the same audience?
I'd say NROL is intended for the beginner or typical gym-goer who hasn't read much about training before (not that intermediate/advanced won't gain quite a bit from the book, too), while ML give me the impression it's more for the person who has trained consistently for a while and wants a different program to change things up.
I don't have ML, but I can understand G's review. One might tend to think as you do, Bill. However, I've got the EDT DVD (got it for free from Julianne -- thanks Jules) and I found it to be very basic and, in retrospect, would not have wanted to pay for it. The main reason is that some of the discussion about it is a bit like beating a dead horse. Then, after the discussion, the remaining half the disc is watching someone do an EDT workout. Exciting.
So, ML might be for people who already work out and are looking for an alternative or a next step. But, if it's like the DVD, then it's too basic in content, too much hand holding. OTOH, perhaps it's that way in case a beginner tries it and can't quite grasp the concept. However, it seems even in that case, the DVD, and perhaps the book, beat the horse a bit too much. Maybe I just don't like watching dudes working out and getting sweaty.
Is the concept OK in and of itself? Sure. Would a book or DVD explaining it and demonstrating it briefly be useful? Sure. But what I've seen is too much fluff and filler, IMO. Someone else, however, might think it's great.
I don't own ML, so I can't comment on it. But I do own NROL and I agree that it's a lot of substantial content for a very low price. It's inexpensive enough that everyone interested in fitness should read it. It's a fun, easy to read book thanks to Lou Schuler's entertaining writing style. The book explains the concepts behind the included programs in beginner language so the reader learns the how and why (at least to some extent) behind the system. It's a book that teaches instead of just offering routines.
It's a great book for a beginner, but I got a lot out of it too. As a trainer, I liked seeing how Alwyn put together the programs. I enjoyed reading Lou's writing and learn a few excellent ways to express certain concepts to beginners. It's a great book to recommend when a beginner asks what they should buy. It covers all the basic concepts and sets them up with the ability to judge new information they read later.
I don't own ML, so I can't comment on it. But I do own NROL and I agree that it's a lot of substantial content for a very low price. It's inexpensive enough that everyone interested in fitness should read it. It's a fun, easy to read book thanks to Lou Schuler's entertaining writing style. The book explains the concepts behind the included programs in beginner language so the reader learns the how and why (at least to some extent) behind the system. It's a book that teaches instead of just offering routines.
It's a great book for a beginner, but I got a lot out of it too. As a trainer, I liked seeing how Alwyn put together the programs. I enjoyed reading Lou's writing and learn a few excellent ways to express certain concepts to beginners. It's a great book to recommend when a beginner asks what they should buy. It covers all the basic concepts and sets them up with the ability to judge new information they read later.
I agree with Lisa. I consider myself to be a beginner to intermediate, in terms of lifting -- been doing it regularly for the last couple of years. This book (NROL) really helped me to understand more of what I could get out of lifting, and it is presented in a very easy and fun to read format.
The SECOND separator which isn’t entirely obvious at first glance is that ML has 63 pages of content at 220pg book. That other 150pgs are examples of workouts with a picture of a dude doing them. That’s a LOT of example folks.
I have picked up ML at the book store a heap of times, but this is one of the reasons why it never makes it out of the store with me.
Of course, for only $12.... That's dirt cheap compared to some of the products advertised around here. I spend almost that much on a Meat-n-4 and an unsweet tea for lunch.
On the other hand, I also saw ML in the bookstore the other day and didn't buy it.
NROL is definitely the bargain bomb of info. and workouts.
One question, though: what led you to pair these two books? Are they really targeted to the same audience?
Someone asked if I would do ML and I thought a comparison might be fun. I just looked at the shelf and picked the 2nd at random.
IMO they're pretty much the same audience...everyone. What one person gets out of reading one and reading the other might be different (different application), the target is still "general public".
*note*
The review and such is in no way meant to pick on the people that have trouble wrapping their mind around EDT.
I bought both. I learned enough from ML to make it worth the $12. I think there's been a lot of EDT discussion here, but a lot of people just don't get it. The book helps, and most people like sample workouts.
NROL is more complete, in the sense that you can sort of make a whole new lifestyle from it.
I think that the reason that some people don't get EDT is that it is so simple(not easy but simple). After reading about tempo, rest, intensity and volume in articles and books you find it hard to believe that lifting can be this simple but still effective.
Like LD mentioned NROL is much more inclusive pretty much covering a program for any goal that you have choosen for your lifting program.
P.S. If anyone is interested in EDT and does not believe how simple it is I will send them my DVD (free) and it shows 2 complete workouts.
__________________ -50# by 4/1/10 2 down 48 to go.
NROL is more complete, in the sense that you can sort of make a whole new lifestyle from it.
That is a great observation, and that's what happened to me. I would drift in and out of self-designed workouts that kept me in fair shape, but I never made any advances. I wouldn't stick with anything over 2-3 months. Now, I've been doing NROL for 6 months, and I'm planning on going through all the workouts which will get me through the end of the year (or at least close). I'm always excited about my next trip to the gym, especially when doing the Strength programs. And the chapter on clean eating gives you enough guidelines to eat wisely, but I like the fact that it is not a meal-by-meal planner.
EDT is simple. I have muscle logic. I am not sure I learned that much more from it than I learned from the t-nation stuff. Either way if I didn't know anything about EDT, I think the book would do a decent job explaining it to me.
EDT may require more thought I suppose since it dosen't have a bunch of progressing workouts like NROL.
I'd almost say it's like comparing apples to oranges with these two books.
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Gobbla, these reviews are great! I'm learning a ton from the review and from the resulting dialogue. Thanks so much for taking the time to do this for us! I'm looking forward to the next one.
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I bought both. I learned enough from ML to make it worth the $12. I think there's been a lot of EDT discussion here, but a lot of people just don't get it. The book helps, and most people like sample workouts.
NROL is more complete, in the sense that you can sort of make a whole new lifestyle from it.
Better let gobbla know. He "thinks" he was the only one that "got" EDT.
I think the use of "lately" might be understating the amount I've read . I've "lately" decided to pursue a career in training, but I've been reading for a bit.
Just out of curiosity for the folks that really liked ML. How much information did you receive from reading the book that you didn't already see on T-Nation? Is it the information or the accessibility (or both) at a reasonable price that made the book worth your value?
While the cage match-up idea is interesting, I do feel similarly to Keith in that this is comparing apples to oranges. I enjoyed both books. I felt both were worth the price that I paid for them.
I remember when I was growing up, I collected baseball cards. I would pay X amount for a package knowing that in the package there might be a card that in the collecting guide was worth X amount (typically more). I catalogued, inventoried, preserved several million cards as I was growing up. I enjoyed them and to me....they held great value.
My brother sold all of my baseball cards while I was away at college. All of them - the autographed ones, the rare ones, etc. Someone made off with a lot of cards for $500. Do I think, they were worth more. Yes. Could I have sold them for more...maybe. In reality, something is only worth what people are willing to pay for it. Value seems to me to be built into the individual and what they take away from a product -- and sometimes it has nothing to do with money. I am not going to consider telling people not collect baseball cards, though.
I like NROL and have encouraged many people to read it. I have given away many copies to people - most recently to a person participating in the Challenge. Did Lou or Alwyn give me a lot of copies to just dispense when I wanted? No. I purchased them.
I have done similarly with Muscle Logic. Why? I believe that it is a good resource for understanding EDT. The methodology is sounds and the programming produces results. Were I to continue comparing apples to oranges, I might say... "for the cost of Large Pizza" you could own Muscle Logic.
Despite this being a forum, some people do not know about T-Nation and it might not always be around. Even old editions of books are readily obtainable. Plus, I like to have something in my hands. I like to support the work of people who create things. I respect the effort that goes into something and I don't always assume a scam is in play. As a society, I think this happens all too often. We have become really defensive. Value and benefit are really a highly subjective arena.
Are these books for you? I don't know. Perhaps. Until you have done something, tried something, [read: been there. done that] no one will ever know. I could say many good things about both NROL and Muscle Logic.
As an underview, I think public reviews are useful to the extent that they open up a dialog. They should not be taken as definitive or authoritative, either. Fortunately, Gobbla has said some of these things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobbla
Gobbla's Guides: Blue collar reviews from a guy that isn't connected to CRAP!
It seems to me like their are folks out there that are concerned that the reviews and advice that they are given are coming from people with a vested interest in seeing products succeed. While I don't have a strong position one way or the other on the integrity of the industry, I believe that if you're selling products then it's about the $$. This thread is me voicing my views on fitness products. I'm not a professional. I'm not an expert. I'm a consumer. I don't get paid or respected by a positive or negative review. I don't give a damn if people like the product or review. My thoughts unchained.
We have all read Amazon.com reviews of material. How many times have you thought, "I totally disagree" or "yeah, I agree with that guy." My hallucination is several. The end could simply be Gobbla saying the sky is blue and I think it is shades of grey. It all depends on where we are and what we are looking at. Even when you narrow those things down, most people will still see different shades of similar hues.
As for cage matches, I prefer to see single product reviews. I'd also like to see the authors comments on some of these things too, if available. I know that I have looked at publishing a book. It is reasonably expensive for me to do so. A binder makes a somewhat cost effective option at getting material to people and keeping cost lower. There may be elements of the business that we haven't considered or do not know about. I am not sure. I end this little [read: lengthy] post with the thought.... one man's trash is another man's treasure.
Newman
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Okay, I gotta ask (and hope I'm not the only one wondering).
I know NROL.
What's EDT?
Escalated Density Training.
I actually recommended to Gobbla that he continue these type of comparative reviews, because they model the purchasing process.
Many of us have a set budget to spend on things like fitness products. At the end of the day, we have to compare them and make a choice with our limited funds. Knowing which products are the best fit for our particular situation is essential. Comparative reviews help me do that.
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I actually recommended to Gobbla that he continue these type of comparative reviews, because they model the purchasing process.
Many of us have a set budget to spend on things like fitness products. At the end of the day, we have to compare them and make a choice with our limited funds. Knowing which products are the best fit for our particular situation is essential. Comparative reviews help me do that.
Thanks, Red!
And I agree -- it was the rave reviews of NROL that led me to it in the first place, as opposed to the gazillion other books out there...
I'd also like to see the authors comments on some of these things too, if available.
I like the fact that the authors aren't commenting. My book should stand on its own, without my needing to add anything to a reviewer's comments. (Unless it's to apologize for "superset with full rest," of course. I think that's the biggest screw-up of my publishing career so far, considering I promised to explain it in one section of the book, and then just started using the term a few pages later as if I had explained it.)
And Charles' book should likewise stand on its own.
Authors only own the book until it's published. After that, ownership transfers to the end users. You like it, or you don't. It works for you, or it doesn't.
I explained to Gobbla in a PM that I actually launched both books at Rodale. I brought Charles into the mix, although I left before I could edit his book. The original title was Muscles in Minutes, but someone else used that title before we could get Charles' into print. (That was partly my fault, IIRC. I was really busy, and working inefficiently, and didn't get some books published as quickly as I should have.) And we all know that NROL was published by Avery, not Rodale.
So I have plenty of reasons not to comment in a thread about two books I was involved with. I agree with the comments suggesting that the two books aren't entirely comparable -- they were never meant to appeal to the same audience or achieve the same goals.
But, as I said, the audience owns the books now, so what I know about their origins isn't as important as the end users' experiences.
New Rules vs. Muscle Logic
. I've "lately" decided to pursue a career in training, but I've been reading for a bit.
Linear Mode
