JP Fitness Forums powered by fitness insite  
Google
 
Web forums.jpfitness.com

Go Back   JP Fitness Forums > Fitness > Training Discussion
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Training Discussion Ask workout questions or share your knowledge.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-03-2007, 10:12 AM   #1 (permalink)
Q.
Just Plain SENIOR
 
Q.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: SPURSville, Texas
Posts: 4,374
Default Modifications with aging in the role played by vision and proprioception for movement

GO OLD PEOPLE! :p Actually, I was doing a little search on maintaining proprioception and this came up. Also posted one under Martial Arts about Tai Chi. Anybody do any work on this specifically as a part of their training regime??? If you work with older clients, seems to me that it would be high on the list of areas to train in.

Modifications with aging in the role played by vision and proprioception for movement control.

SourceDepartement d'Education Physique, Universite de Montreal, Canada.
Young and older adults performed manual aiming movements to a visible target for either 40 or 200 trials. Under each level of practice, half of the subjects practiced the task under normal visual conditions (proprioception + vision [PV] condition), whereas the other half were not permitted to see their ongoing movement toward the target (proprioception-only [P] condition). Each acquisition trial was followed with knowledge of results (KR). After the last acquisition trial, all subjects were transferred to a common task in which only the target to be reached was visually available, with no KR. During acquisition, the younger subjects were found to be spatially more accurate than their older counterparts, and this was so regardless of the number of acquisition trials. Withdrawing KR during the transfer test did not modify the spatial accuracy of the subjects who had trained under the P condition. This indicates that the subjects had a reliable reference of the movement to be realized. Withdrawing vision of the moving hand and KR in the transfer test caused a significant increase in spatial error for both the older and the younger subjects. However, the increase in error was less pronounced for the older than for the younger subjects. In fact, the older subjects performed as well in the transfer test as the subjects who had trained in the P condition. This pattern of results suggests that in the transfer test, the older subjects could still guide their movements with the proprioceptive information that was available during both acquisition and transfer. However, such was not the case for the younger subjects. This suggests that, unlike the younger subjects, the older subjects could still rely on the proprioceptive cues available during acquisition in the PV condition. These results are taken to indicate that practicing with numerous sources of afferent information, as was the case in the PV condition, resulted in an integrated reference store for the younger subjects. In contrast, while practicing the task in the PV condition, the older subjects appeared to process independently from each other the different sources of sensory information available.
PMID: 8665984 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
__________________
YES WE CAN
Q. is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2007, 10:39 AM   #2 (permalink)
Super Moderator
 
Lisa~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Alabama
Posts: 5,383
Default

Q, I work with several older clients and I know that working on balance and proprioception are important aspects of their training. I have also experienced, at least with my clients, that they seem to balance better and maintain better technique when they do NOT look in the mirror. I like them to think about where their body is in space and focus internally to find correct body position. I have them do more single-leg movements than bilateral, and I also work lots of core stability for almost all of them.

After listening to Dave Schmitz at the Summit, I've been considering ways to incorporate more decelerative training, which would train the ability to stop a fall. The ability to decelerate is related to proprioception, don't you think? I mean, it's not good enough to know where you are when you're falling, lol. I think we want to know quickly enough to be able to react and stop that fall. Most of what I've read recently about training older adults discusses the need to maintain and improve power (and decelerative training includes reactive power). These concepts are all intertwined in my mind when it comes to creating the most appropriate training programs for my clients.

I saw your post about Tai Chi and I have not personally participated, but I have been impressed with the people and instructors I see in the Tai Chi classes offered at my gym. They improve their posture and core control. They learn how to breath effectively for movement. But I would want to augment those abilities with reactive training, power, and improved quickness (relative to their current abilities of course).
__________________
Lisa Holladay, CSCS
Lisa~ is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2007, 02:14 PM   #3 (permalink)
Fat Loss Troubleshooter
 
Leigh P.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,903
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa~
that they seem to balance better and maintain better technique when they do NOT look in the mirror.
Lisa I think this is a fantastic point to raise. I have found that older clients are a lot more sensitive to their environment and in general respond better to movements that force controlling their environment instead existing in their environment.

One of my favorite training movements with senior clients is a 'swiss ball bounce squat'. Seniors number one fear is falling and hurting their hip forcing them into instant assisted care.

Therefore in training I focus on the principal of building up to help stop that fall movement.

The speed of the drop into a squat position allows a sort of false enactment of a fall.

The stop allows for great stabilization and glute activation but the ball is soft enough and support and will bounce the client up if need.

It is a great movement and I highly recommend it for senior clients. The progression of my clients has been excellent and is by far their favorite movement. It is also easy to progress with weight or going from a bi-lateral movement to a unilateral movement.
Leigh P. is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2007, 02:39 PM   #4 (permalink)
Eat, Sleep, Lift Big
 
Fulmen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 582
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa~
The ability to decelerate is related to proprioception, don't you think? I mean, it's not good enough to know where you are when you're falling, lol. I think we want to know quickly enough to be able to react and stop that fall. Most of what I've read recently about training older adults discusses the need to maintain and improve power (and decelerative training includes reactive power).
I consider reactive power suited best for athletes-people who really need it (also, couldn't you say-while doing a squat-go explosive both in the acceleration and deceleration phase?). Also, having anyone do new things would cause their proprioception to be diminished, due to not being adapted to the exercise.

In summary though, I believe it's a good idea. Just don't overdo it with deceleration training, because then you'll cause an imbalance and the muscles used for deceleration will be stronger than those used for acceleration (which I fear people forget about while getting in the flex-band hype).
__________________
The JP Fitness Blodybuilder
Fulmen is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2007, 02:47 PM   #5 (permalink)
Trainer.Author.Lifter.
 
John Izzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 1,233
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulmen
I consider reactive power suited best for athletes-people who really need it (also, couldn't you say-while doing a squat-go explosive both in the acceleration and deceleration phase?). Also, having anyone do new things would cause their proprioception to be diminished, due to not being adapted to the exercise.

In summary though, I believe it's a good idea. Just don't overdo it with deceleration training, because then you'll cause an imbalance and the muscles used for deceleration will be stronger than those used for acceleration (which I fear people forget about while getting in the flex-band hype).
Deceleration is so under-trained and dominated by acceleration (by daily activities), that an imbalance is highly improbable (unless we all start walking backwards). Not to be sarcastic, but muscular imbalances are more prone to occur from non-training activities like poor static posture, injury, poor lifting mechanics, extra bodyweight, and gravity.
__________________
John Izzo, NASM-CPT, PES

Aspiring or Entry Level Trainers:
Find out what the secret skills of personal training are and see if you have them!
John Izzo is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 06-03-2007, 03:03 PM   #6 (permalink)
Eat, Sleep, Lift Big
 
Fulmen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 582
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Izzo
Deceleration is so under-trained and dominated by acceleration (by daily activities), that an imbalance is highly improbable (unless we all start walking backwards).
Good point. I just thought that deceleration isn't as un-trained as everyone thinks, but I have nothing to back that up.
__________________
The JP Fitness Blodybuilder
Fulmen is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2007, 04:29 PM   #7 (permalink)
Q.
Just Plain SENIOR
 
Q.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: SPURSville, Texas
Posts: 4,374
Default

Great feedback on what I was afraid might have been too off the wall a topic. At the only JP summit that I've been to so far ('94), Lou was telling me about a great idea he had for a book that had to do with training older clients (as I recall anyway) but he didn't have anyone to back it at the time. I think this should be an increasingly growing market and trainers should be shifting their focus and boning up on the needed scientific info for this group. I was even considering getting into training a few years ago for the sole purpose of training older clients and may still but I've got some other stuff to do first.

By the way, when you (anyone or everyone) use the term "seniors," what age group are you referring to. I was joking with the woman in my office and we agreed that we don't like to be perceived as seniors but we damned sure want our discount when we can get it!
__________________
YES WE CAN
Q. is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2007, 06:57 PM   #8 (permalink)
Fat Loss Troubleshooter
 
Leigh P.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,903
Default

I think training should definitely take a focus towards seniors. I made sure to get the special OPT for Seniors through the NASM, it was an excellent little CEU. I highly recommend it, you do get CEU credits for it through NASM, NCSA and ACE.

As for age group or senior, to me its 60+. Though I still find that to be quite young and have a 63 year old client that could Whoop some younger slackers. There are physiological differences to be taken into account so that is a reason I do find it to be relevant, but that should not stop any advances...didn't stop her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAUQd...elated&search=
Leigh P. is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2007, 07:32 PM   #9 (permalink)
Super Moderator
 
Lisa~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Alabama
Posts: 5,383
Default

Like Leigh, I find it inappropriate to define clients by age for the most part. It's about their abilities and their limitations.

I have a 61-year-old female who's in great shape. She's in excellent health and takes no medications of any kind (amazing for someone in this country who is over 60). She has excellent core stability and joint mobility. She bench presses, squats, and does single-leg movements. Her only limitation is strength, so we keep working to load up the bar.

I have another female client who is 63. She has sciatica in her hip and some balance problems. She came to me with severe pain and daily pain medications. A year of working with her and she no longer takes any pain medication. She can deadlift, but I don't have her squat. We do lots and lots of single-leg work. She does extra long mobility warm-ups and static stretches after lifting. Her progress is slower, but she is moving forward. She's the client with whom I'm beginning to work deceleration.

I have a female client who is 37 who is in worse shape than both of the above clients. She has a severe anterior pelvic tilt and she is very, very weak. She cannot maintain her body position in a bodyweight squat, so we're doing only single-leg work at the moment and working on lots of corrective movements and generally looking for increased strength overall.

I have a male client who is 32 and has extremely high cholesterol levels, high blood pressure, and is on several medications. He's had three surgeries on his cervical spine as well. He's a mess and much harder to work with than any of my older clients.

It's never the age alone that determines what a client needs. Although we can look for the expected age-related changes, you never know until you start to work with someone what they will be able to handle. Each person, no matter what their age, will have their own unique set of strengths and limitations.
__________________
Lisa Holladay, CSCS
Lisa~ is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:32 PM.

Features ...
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0
Ad Management by RedTyger