A case against bodyweight movements?

[sharkattack]

While traveling for business the other week, a coworker and I decided to go to the local gym for a workout. He’s just beginning the NROL program so it worked out nicely, as I’m also starting over due to my forearm injury.

I know that many times Alwyn (as well as some of the folks that post here) has always said that one shouldn’t start doing any forms of bench pressing unless they can do pushups in good form first. I think his exact words were “If you can’t do at least 15 pushups, get your ass off the bench!” My coworker is slightly overweight and cannot do but 1 or 2 pushups on his own. For curiosity’s sake, I had him assume the pushup position and placed a scale under his hands. It read 147#.

Am I correct in assuming that this is almost the same as benching 147#? I ask because I would never think of advising him to jump right into bench presses with a 147# barbell. However, I would advise him to start benching with what he can handle, in good form. For the record, he was doing DB bench presses with 25# and 30# DBs and that was about right for him.

So, that being said, is there a case against doing pushups? Since a pushup is basically a bench press, is it accurate to place a scale under your hands to see how much ‘weight’ you’re actually pressing, and correlate it to bench pressing the same amount of ‘weight?’ I don’t see the difference in a heavy guy struggling to do pushups or struggling to bench press the same ‘weight,’ yet we’d never advise a person to start off bench pressing that ‘weight.’

Your thoughts?

[OldGuy]

What's the case against?

If it is 147#, and he can only do 1 or 2 pushups do you think he would be able to do more than 1 or 2 presses @147? I don't see the logic.

[Jimbo]

Shark - Are you questioning Alwyn's logic regarding the idea that "if a person can't do bw pushups they should stay off the bench"? I assume that's what you are making a case about here.

I can see your point. If we are talking the amount of weight pressed then perhaps the bench could serve to work his way up to bw pushups. Is that you point?

That said, I have no idea why benching would be a bad thing for someone to do in his case.

So I think the best way to ask this, if I understand you correctly here, is to ask - why is benching a no-no for someone who cannot do a bw pushup?

Good question. I have no idea.

[sharkattack]

I guess what I meant was that bodyweight exercises, such as pushups, aren't always the best choice for a beginning lifter. Even though it's generally considered that new trainees start off with pushups before moving on the the bench press, that might not necessarily be the wisest choice.

[Frank.S]

I like alwyns advice..

If you cant do 15 pushups, do girl pushups or some of the ideas mentioned here imo:
How to improve pushups?

Its not going to take more then a few workouts for the average person to be able to to do 15 pushups. I think this gives a better base while working more muscles to start with.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Frank.S

I think this gives a better base while working more muscles to start with.

Frank makes a good point there. The added efforts to maintain balance while doing the different body weight exercises is a plus.

I didn't think of that. And that's why I'm not a trainer.:p

[dawong]

std. pushups are about 70ish% of your bw. dont remember where i read that. but i remember reading it a few times.

[Chiron]

I've given that kind of advice before but it's usually directed towards kids who should start with bodyweight movements and build a base, then start doing more free weight movements.

In your friends case I'd have him start benching with barbells and dumbbells. Or he could just do a bunch of sets of singles or girl push-ups and build more strength. As long as he's not some 12 year old I don't see why it would be an issue to use either exercise.

And ya, putting his hands on the scale would be a good estimate of how much weight he's lifting when he does pushups.

[OldGuy]

What's your training background? Fitness education? You do realise that there is more going on in the pushup than just a chest exercise. For example your core muscles get a pretty good workout holding you in the pushup position. No, I think your logic is wrong on this one.

If he can't do the set of 15 as called for in the break-in program then I would do as many as can be done and the rest while on his knees. And each workout try to increase the number of regular pushups until he can get to 15.

I hope you have him doing bodyweight squats first before adding any load.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by sharkattack

Since a pushup is basically a bench press,

Whoa whoa whoa, this is a flawed statement. A push-up is an unsupported, closed-chain exercise, where the resistance close to the center of gravity and requires a lot of postural muscle activation. A bench press is an open-chain exercise done lying supported on a bench with a flat foot solid base, the resistance is a 7-foot barbell with plates on either end. Yes, a lot of the prime movers are the same, but the machanics of these exercises are quite different.


And I don't think you're friend needs any external resistance at this point. Master bodyweight first. If he can't do push-ups, perform easier versions or other BW exercises he can do and forget about push-ups. Concentrating on losing weight will help with push-ups as well.

[Chris Correia]

Originally Posted by Jason B

Whoa whoa whoa, this is a flawed statement. A push-up is an unsupported, closed-chain exercise, where the resistance close to the center of gravity and requires a lot of postural muscle activation. A bench press is an open-chain exercise done lying supported on a bench with a flat foot solid base, the resistance is a 7-foot barbell with plates on either end. Yes, a lot of the prime movers are the same, but the machanics of these exercises are quite different.


And I don't think you're friend needs any external resistance at this point. Master bodyweight first. If he can't do push-ups, perform easier versions or other BW exercises he can do and forget about push-ups. Concentrating on losing weight will help with push-ups as well.

Jason hit good points. There is the knees version, but you can also change the angle/lever, such as pushups against a wall, then a high horizontal surface such as a table top, then a lower surface such as a bench, then the floor. All that time, he is handling bodyweight, getting all kinds of assist and stabilizer muscles involved, and can also do them in the full range of motion, including the PLUS at the end to get the scapular moving.

[spankdat]

Originally Posted by sharkattack

Am I correct in assuming that this is almost the same as benching 147#? I ask because I would never think of advising him to jump right into bench presses with a 147# barbell. However, I would advise him to start benching with what he can handle, in good form. For the record, he was doing DB bench presses with 25# and 30# DBs and that was about right for him.

Yes, but it's a simple matter to reduce the resistance level for most bodyweight exercises and particularly so for push ups. Just start out on an incline, hands placed higher than feet, such as on the back of a couch or a couple of chairs. The closer to vertical, the less the resistance.

Originally Posted by sharkattack

So, that being said, is there a case against doing pushups? Since a pushup is basically a bench press, is it accurate to place a scale under your hands to see how much ‘weight’ you’re actually pressing, and correlate it to bench pressing the same amount of ‘weight?’ I don’t see the difference in a heavy guy struggling to do pushups or struggling to bench press the same ‘weight,’ yet we’d never advise a person to start off bench pressing that ‘weight.’

Your thoughts?

I'd say you're asking a valid question specific to the comparison of benching to push ups, and of appropriate resistance levels, but I wouldn't extend this to being an example of a case against bodyweight movements.

The scale method is relatively accurate and they are a similar movement pattern, but bench is open chain and the push up is closed, and in this regard are fairly different, especially as far as a beginner is concerned. The issue here really is one of resistance level and appropriate rep range.

There are additional benefits to push ups along the lines of shoulder health, stabilizer activation, and core strength enhancement. I don't bench at all, haven't for years. I do decline push ups (feet elevated 24" above hands, hands on blast straps or push up handles) with weighted vest and stretch bands for added resistance up to 325 lbs.

[spankdat]

Crap, I type too slow. Every time I respond to something like this, a handful of other posts show up in the meantime and I end up being redundant. Oh well, let's just say I'm reitterating what others have said .

[sharkattack]

Jimbo did a much better job of explaining what I was trying to say. Thanks for clarifying it for me and the others.

Sharks aren't the greatest at explaining themselves, you know. We just like to swim, eat, and make little sharks!

[RobLL]

Seems to me the rule of thumb I heard last was that until you couldn't do 20 pushups you should do body weight or weights less that 20% of your body weight.

[Chaney Weiner]

Even though push ups and bench presses target pretty much the same areas, each hits the area differently. The big difference involves stability. When bench pressing you are being stabilized by the bench, by lying on your back. When doing a push up the stabilization comes from the core and there is more scapula involvement than in bench pressing.

I am in favor of push ups/bodyweight first before any weighted exercise, if for nothing else the stability and reducing the risk of injury factor. As for those who claim they cannot do push ups...EVERY single person can do push ups, just manipulate the lever arm to the person's particular fitness level.

[diamondpete]

I suspect that the “If you can’t do at least 15 pushups, get your ass off the bench!” statement is two fold.

1. If you cannot do the 15, you not only are fairly weak in the "push" but also probably have a weak core. Working on both of these is a good thing before you start doing the more "isolated bench press).

2. It is annoying to see people pounding out 3 x 8 with 50 lbs on the bar.


I think that there is great "training wisdom" in that BUT for a beginner who wants to "do weights" , it might be discouraging to be told that they are not worthy of the "bench" yet. So I think you need to strike a balance bettween what might be optimal from a strictly training point of view to to what might be psychologically satisfiyng to a beginner.

[kuri]

Believe me that it takes more than a few worko