Would like some routine critques

[GqArtguy]

Hey everyone, I was hoping to get some comments on a routine Im doing (its a Westside/O-lift hybrid routine that Ive put together with some strongmen and powerlifting friends for the purposes of being strong alround like strongmen). Its actually the third phase of a 9wk program. Basically I want to build strength and since this is the last phase, I want to be able to work on my weaknesses as I head closer to the 10th week were I test my maxes on the clean, snatch, jerk, full squat, power squat, and deadlift (dont worry they will be spread out that week so I wont be doing them all on the same day). Im thinking about cyling the movements with just weight rather than volume and weight which I did during phase 2 to increase my work capacity.


MONDAY-MAX EFFORT LOWER BODY

1A) Heavy High pulls to a max
*****gonna start doing these again
1B). Conventional Deadlift with plates suspended 2-4-6 inches off floor(one
week at each hieght) to a max

2. Low Box squat (1-2 in parallel) 5*5
*****I did full squats when this was supposed to be an ME movement during phase 2 b/c I didnt
particularly know how to do these correctly with a narrow stance. I was able to aquire some clips and and advice and Id like to do them. However, Im not sure if I should do the squat just switch to the planned goodmornings.? I noticed that my full squat was stalling after about 1/3 of the way up so I should hit one of these movements hard and maybe add static holds in a full squat position. Any thoughts?

3) Lunges (jumping) 2*10
*****The purpose of these is to get stronged in the split position for jerking but also to develop some more explosion into the actual split position so that I can get under the bar faster. What do you think?

3. lowback and abds
*****Im not sure what rep scheme to do for these but Ive had fun with back ext and cable situps.

WEDNESDAY-MAX EFFORT UPPER BODY

1. Push Press to a max

2.Military Press 5*7
****I hope this goes well with the push press

3.Standing OH Tri Ext: 4*6
*****What do you think of these as far as carryover to overhead pressing?

4.Chin (wave loaded twice 4/3/2)
*****Think it might be a nice way to increase upper body pulling, thoughts?

FRIDAY-DYNAMIC EFFORT LOWER BODY

1. snatches 3-5 sets 1 rep, 60-70%
2.cleans 3-5 sets 1 rep, 60-70%
3.box squat at parallell 3-5 sets at 50-60%
4.hamstrings as on monday
*****I dont think doing low box squatting would be compatible since Im doing wider DE versions, whats your exp with this? Maybe I should do GMs or lunges here, what do you think?

5.abds and low back (higher rep)

SUNDAY-DYNAMIC EFFORT UPPER BODY

1.jerks 10x2x60-70%
2.Military Press 3*12 reps
3. Close grip bench 4*6
4.Rows:
A) 1/3partial 2 x 6-8 reps @ 321; resting 2-3 minutes between sets
B)1/3 Partial Row: 2 x 10-12 reps @ 311; resting 2 minutes between sets
C)Row, no scapular retraction: 2 x 15-20 reps @ 211; resting 1 minute between
sets
*****just trying to work on my mid back

[Bill Hartman]

What exactly are your perceived weakness?

Bill

[GqArtguy]

My weaknesses? Well......

As far as my full squat is concerned I stall midway on the way up, and after exerting for a few secondsi just let go. Im explosive out of the hole but since the weight is heavy, I end up stalling. So I was thinking of either squats from the sticking point or just strengthening the posterior chain in general.

My box squat, I was able to hit 400 for a double. I never did them with a narrow stance but I was thinking that using narrow box squats would have some carryover to the full squat since I can box squat more than I full squat. I do need to hit the lower back, becuase I want to be able to stabilize weights beyond 400lb. I had failed on my first attempt of 400 b/c I leaned foward too much and couldnt stabilze it to get it back in position. That attempt was a flaw in form but I still would like to be able to stabilize and recover an otherwise missed lift.

Im hitting deadlift weaknesses through the rack pulls and weighted chins. Grip is usually the weak link but Ive been able to build it up through romanian deads, pullups and rows, but I still need it to be stronger. Im prediciting that grip aside, my lower back may be the limiting factor in a deadlift, hence the box squatting or goodmorning decision.

On overhead pressing, my weakness is the shoulders. In phase 1 i did bradford presses, and in phase 2 I did db shoulder presses to bring those up, and I was thinking that a military press would be a good exercise with significant carryover.

The limiting factor on the o-lifts is speed. On DE day they are fast, and mostly form-oriented. I like doing heavy high pulls because I believe it will train my body to move quickly with heavier weight. I think this will also help with developing speed for a deadlift.

So there you go B-man, what do you think?

[Bill Hartman]

As far as my full squat is concerned I stall midway on the way up, and after exerting for a few secondsi just let go. Im explosive out of the hole but since the weight is heavy, I end up stalling. So I was thinking of either squats from the sticking point or just strengthening the posterior chain in general.

My box squat, I was able to hit 400 for a double. I never did them with a narrow stance but I was thinking that using narrow box squats would have some carryover to the full squat since I can box squat more than I full squat. I do need to hit the lower back, becuase I want to be able to stabilize weights beyond 400lb. I had failed on my first attempt of 400 b/c I leaned foward too much and couldnt stabilze it to get it back in position. That attempt was a flaw in form but I still would like to be able to stabilize and recover an otherwise missed lift.

Sounds like you're relying on the elastic component of your muscle-tendon unit and rate dominant neural drive (assuming that when you say a few seconds you mean less than 3).

Do you have a decent vertical jump?

You need to increase your ability to strain longer without losing force.

Any form of box squat that is not full range will not transfer to a full squat. Think about this for a minute. How much could you 1/4 squat? A lot right? Will 1/4 squats improve your full squat? Nope. Think bottom-up rather than top-down.

I'd probably lean toward an isometric hold just below and at the sticking point with maximum weights for sets of 6-10 seconds. No box. Make sure you squint during the holds so your eyes don't pop out of your head.

There's 2 "sticking points" in the deadlift...getting it off the ground and just above the knee caps.

In this case, work top down and stand on a 6" box. Perform the iso holds at the knee caps and then where you would start your pulls if you were pulling from the floor (thus the box...get it?)

This will eliminate and "low back" issues and probably transfer to your oly lifts quite nicely.

On overhead pressing, my weakness is the shoulders. In phase 1 i did bradford presses, and in phase 2 I did db shoulder presses to bring those up, and I was thinking that a military press would be a good exercise with significant carryover.

This implies that locking out is not the issue, correct?

This is very similar to your squat issue. Work your overhead presses top down with 2 holds. First one where the upper arm is parallel to the floor, second near the bottom of the press where the bar is about at the chin level (just a guess...you'll "feel" when you're in the right place because the strain will not decrease).

Lose the push presses. It playing on your strengths and not your weaknesses. There is limited loading where you need it the most.

3) Lunges (jumping) 2*10
*****The purpose of these is to get stronged in the split position for jerking but also to develop some more explosion into the actual split position so that I can get under the bar faster. What do you think?

I see where you're going with this, but I don't necessarily agree.

My first inclination is to just say do the jerks. It may just be a simple lack of practice. You're trying to do so many things at once, you may not have given them ample time to develop technique. A big part of the stability in the jerk is controlling the weight overhead.

The limiting factor on the o-lifts is speed. On DE day they are fast, and mostly form-oriented. I like doing heavy high pulls because I believe it will train my body to move quickly with heavier weight. I think this will also help with developing speed for a deadlift.

My gut tells me it isn't speed (see my comments based on your full squat) but a lack of strength at the hang/second pull position like I mentioned in the deadlift response.

Keep in mind that you have massive conflict in program design when trying to oly lift AND powerlift. Neuro demands are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

I think if you devote 3 weeks to increasing your ability to sustain maximal contractions, you'll see a huge jump in all your lifts without worrying about trying to do everything in one microcycle.

Reduce your dynamic effort work to maintenance volume at about 70% once per cycle. You're already good at this from your explanations. Hit the weaknesses with massive effort.

I don't mean to sound overly critical. You sound like you have a great deal of unrecognized potential.

The beauty of conjugated periodization is it's ability to focus efforts and make significant gains in a short period of time. The Westside template makes people think that equal time is given to all aspects which isn't true. It's a focus on weakpoints without losing the qualities that are dominant in your current physiology.

Did that help at all??

Bill

[cuvermodel]

Wow Bill great reply, I got a ton of good things from that. Just wondering what do you feel about Westside as a whole? I think it's fantastic, but I was wondering what you thought it's strengths/weaknesses are?

[Bill Hartman]

The basic template is good for powerlifters, but you must know your specific needs.

It is also not necessarily appropriate for newbies and young training ages.

There are also some things that I'm curious as to why they DON'T do them.

Bill

[BiggerThanYou]

Is there a site to get the routine at?

[Bill Hartman]

All the Westside info is on Dave Tate's site www.elitefts.com.

There is also a 9 week program that introduces you to the Westside Template.

Bill Hartman

[GqArtguy]

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds like you're relying on the elastic component of your muscle-tendon unit and rate dominant neural drive (assuming that when you say a few seconds you mean less than 3).
Do you have a decent vertical jump?
You need to increase your ability to strain longer without losing force.
Any form of box squat that is not full range will not transfer to a full squat. Think about this for a minute. How much could you 1/4 squat? A lot right? Will 1/4 squats improve your full squat? Nope. Think bottom-up rather than top-down.
I'd probably lean toward an isometric hold just below and at the sticking point with maximum weights for sets of 6-10 seconds. No box. Make sure you squint during the holds so your eyes don't pop out of your head.

Havent tested my vertical jump so I dont know. Thanks for the suggestion, i think I ll go with the isometric holds.

I like the idea of top down deadlifts off a box but how would I do this in a power rack? I suppose I could put the pins at the (elevated) bottom position and then the bar holders at knee level. Would I be on the box and starting at the kneecap position holding, what might be more than a max since its eccentric, and then after say 6 seconds lower it to the bottom position and holding it there for 6sec?

This implies that locking out is not the issue, correct?
This is very similar to your squat issue. Work your overhead presses top down with 2 holds. First one where the upper arm is parallel to the floor, second near the bottom of the press where the bar is about at the chin level (just a guess...you'll "feel" when you're in the right place because the strain will not decrease).
Lose the push presses. It playing on your strengths and not your weaknesses. There is limited loading where you need it the most.

Youre right, lock is not an issue because in the first phase I did overhead pin presses at my weak spots. ,

As far as low holds are concerned, how should my hands be placed? My wrists are all the way back at the starting position of a jerk and they are still in that position till they reach the top of the leg drive, think push press. I think it would hurt to hold maximal holds with my wrists in that position. Or should my hands be like they are in a military press, where the upper arm is not parallel to the floor?

I see where you're going with this, but I don't necessarily agree.
My first inclination is to just say do the jerks. It may just be a simple lack of practice. You're trying to do so many things at once, you may not have given them ample time to develop technique. A big part of the stability in the jerk is controlling the weight overhead.

Actually my technique is pretty good, I was just wondering if strengthening my legs in this way had any benefits.

My gut tells me it isn't speed (see my comments based on your full squat) but a lack of strength at the hang/second pull position like I mentioned in the deadlift response.

Do you think I should do my o-lifts from the hang then? thus far on DE I work on technique on the full variations.

Im aware of the difference of demands in power and o-lifting, I was thinking that I could take the best of both worlds (strength of PL and power of OL). Additonaly I like the idea of the conjugate method mixed with OL. Its been fun, but I wont know the full effects until I test my maxes in about 4 wks.

Thanks Bill!

[joshman]

Great discussion.

Could anyone point me towards a reference which describes the reasoning behind box squats (high and low), board presses and other partial rep moves employed by the westside guys?

I can find explanations about _how_ to do the exercises everywhere, but I'm just trying to figure out why.

I was thinking they were attempts to allow the elasticity of your muscle to dissipate before the concentric portion, but I'm just not sure.

Thanks,
Josh

[Bill Hartman]

Gq,

I like the idea of top down deadlifts off a box but how would I do this in a power rack? I suppose I could put the pins at the (elevated) bottom position and then the bar holders at knee level. Would I be on the box and starting at the kneecap position holding, what might be more than a max since its eccentric, and then after say 6 seconds lower it to the bottom position and holding it there for 6sec?

Correct. Find the weight that you can hold for 6 seconds using the top hold as your measure. Complete as many sets as possible as long as you can hold the top position 6 seconds.

For the press holds use a military press-like grip and arm position. I wasn't relating this to jerks at all, but rather your press issues.

The thing about the jerks is the push under the bar (see Newtons 3rd law) which is not duplicated in the jump lunge. If you can be specific, then I would just a soon be specific. If you feel weak in lunge position, you can always do holds in that position as well and add in some imperfection training to improve stability.

If you plan on testing yourself with the full oly movements, then perform the full clean/snatch for technical practice.

Could anyone point me towards a reference which describes the reasoning behind box squats (high and low), board presses and other partial rep moves employed by the westside guys?

I can find explanations about _how_ to do the exercises everywhere, but I'm just trying to figure out why.

I was thinking they were attempts to allow the elasticity of your muscle to dissipate before the concentric portion, but I'm just not sure.

Check the Westside Barbell site www.westside-barbell.com and read Louie Simmons' article there and on www.elitefts.com. I think there's something that explains their rationale.

If you can't find anything satisfactory, let me know as I am too short on time today to really get into it.

Bill

[GqArtguy]

Hey Josh, you can read a desription of how to do a box squat in the articles: "squatting from head to toe" and "squat 900lbs" by dave tate written at t-mag and also available at elite. Also if you want to see video clips of the movement at various stances, heights, etc. as well as other popular WS movements (i.e. GMs and stuff trust me its different) go here: www.growordie.com.

The basic template is good for powerlifters, but you must know your specific needs.
It is also not necessarily appropriate for newbies and young training ages.
There are also some things that I'm curious as to why they DON'T do them.

Hey Bill thanks for your replies but what did you mean by your last stament in this quote?

[Bill Hartman]

First let me say that they are obviously some of the strongest humans on the planet, so anything I say must be taken with a grain of salt (it's easy to be critical from a distance). Since I don't bench press 600 pounds what do I know, right? I also can't say that there's anything that they don't do since I don't hang out at the WSBC. Louie Simmon's is rather brilliant when it comes to strength development and by reputation is always looking for something new to benefit their training and doesn't miss a thing.

So, that said...

From the chest to the sticking point in the bench press, there is a strong influence of the connective tissues contribution to the acceleration of the bar + stretch reflex + acceleration strength. At the sticking point, there is a transition to greater demand on maximal strength.

I would be exploring this region a great deal more than what I perceive that they do. Getting stronger in the weakest portion of a lift will improve strength throughout. Again, it's just an observation on my part. I could be way off (I know they use cambered bar presses on occasion, but I've yet to read about the use of maximal isometrics at the sticking point). Being 4 hours away I should get off my dead ass and drive over there.

Perhaps their dynamic presses address this sufficiently and the triceps involvement in lock out is more important, thus the heavy use of pin presses, board presses, etc. Based on their bench press technique and the weight used this is entirely possible.

It could also be that the use of a bench shirt provides a tremendous amount of assistance in this area and therefore it is of less concern. (It can take 100-200 pounds just to get the bar to your chest while wearing a shirt which is like increasing the rebound from the connective tissues). Something that crossed my mind was that they don't always train with a bench shirt, so the tissues may not be adequately conditioned in this region which results in pain/injury from training.

Perhaps, I'm over-thinking and should just shut up and lift, eh? I'd certainly sleep better at night.

Bill

[joshman]

Bill, thanks for the links to www.westside-barbell.com. I just read the latest issue and it is AWESOME! For whatever reason, I don't get much from articles that briefly describe training principals like the Eight Keys. The articles that Louie Simmons provides here are GREAT, very in-depth nuggets that tie the principals together.

And there is even a couple of sentences answering my exact question [img]smile.gif[/img]

[GqArtguy]

Bill you evil sadistic man!

I did the deadlifts as an ME movement and the iso squats as an accessory movement, and I had my ass handed to me! I was blown away and I havent felt my ass kicked like this in a while, oh soooooo sore today!

[Bill Hartman]

Because of the load and short duration of hold in the ISO squat, it would be a max effort lift. Therefore, you did 2 max effort exercises on the same day which should have kicked your ass rather handily.

So in other words, don't do them on the same day. UNLESS, you want to change the level of intensity.

You could do one for ME at a 6-8 second holds and the second for 25-40 second holds. The longer holds will be more like a repetition method set vs. max effort.

Since you did do them as both ME exercises. You may need some extra recovery time before the next ME training session. Test yourself to determine optimal recovery.

Bill