I'm not suggesting any purging is in order on this forum but seeing as we've lost a few contributors there are lessons to be learned from how T-Nation has evolved (of devolved) in the past few years.
__________________
Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
I started to read it. It's about what non-T-Nation people say about it...the site is too confrontational, not really objectively discussing, but bashing and disrespectful.
Some would say, grow a thicker skin, but there's a not so fine line between proving your position through argument and putting someone down. One being the aspired course of reason, the other embracing the inner ape.
JP, you wanted to increase your site, well, TC has something to say on that:
Quote:
From the studies I've read about the Internet, much of this seems to be the sad but natural progression of Internet sites. As sites mature, they draw undesirables. The collective IQ starts to drop like an over-loaded Olympic bar after a failed attempt at a PR.
However, there is also some serious Borg mentality over there. So much collective celebrating of the latest article and no reasoned, critical eye. Everyone is "good article," not "how could I adjust it to minimize this particular weakness."
I say, lets keep JP's small so it stays intelligent and relevent.
Maybe TN should divide the forum into a free section and a premium, read as, paid for, section. Anyone can view the premium, but only paying members can post. The articles would go into the premium, thus, only paying members have access to the authors.
Membership can be revoked for misconduct.
It would seperate some, not all, but perhaps most.
IMO you'd have to be a moron to judge the validity of a persons advice from their post count. One dumb ass listens to another dumb ass and ends up dropping a bar on their head, it's self correcting. Not seeing the big deal with that.
I'm glad that they've had enough problems over there to cause issues with how they do business. Like cycnic points out, most of the "complaints" were obvious to 90% of the people that looked at the forum. It just stems from a general lack of respect and consequence for your actions. The sad part is that it's likely going to be over-corrected when all that really needs to happen is few bans and enforcement of basic etiquette.
Hopefully JP's site will grow 100x and he'll delegate when appropriate and his business grow w\ it. This place is like an "anti-T-nation"...someone posts pictures or asks for advice and they get encouragement. Someone wants help and they get it. There's a feeling of companionship. The more people that can be part of the solution the better. If JP can make some money (get something back from the time, money, and effort he put in) then that's even better.
I thought it was an awesome rant and he hit everything on the mark 100%. The internet is filled with alot of unproven enthusiats that offer nothing but crtiticsm, negativity, and ignornace.
I debated posting that article or not yesterday. I found it great, but to me it didn't really apply. I just read the articles. I rarely go on and read the posts after them and don't go on the forums. If its true that newer authors are hesitant to post on T-nation because of the trolls, then I think I'd agree with the changes he wants to make. I'd rather read as much as I can then use my own judgment on how to apply it.
__________________
"Rust on a nail builds tetanus. Rust on a barbell builds character, strength, and attitude." -EC
"Don't spend your life wishing. Spend it doing." -FishrCutB8
"You're a mutant, like a snake with two heads or a cat shy one nipple. Be thankful that your mutation is helpful." - LD
It's good he got his rant out there, and hopefully the trolls there get the message. But I don't think it will be good for his forums, or his authors. Gobbla is right, it's a basic lack of respect that causes the problem. You may not agree with what an author is saying but a least disagree in a respectful manner. And the authors need to thicken their skin a little, not everyone will get what they are saying. Ignore the trolls and help the 90% that are interested. Sometimes they have to remember that we are like they were years ago, ignorant in a flood of information. They didn't get where they are by not questioning those who were ahead of them at the time.
The mod who let the "bitch" comment through should lose his mod abilities.
__________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."
I don't by any means speak for TC, but I think it's fair to say that he's only addressing one part of a set of problems, which are peripherally related to each other.
The problem isn't that authors have thin skins (I know many of those guys, and they aren't averse to arguments), it's that the comments for the articles become content. People skim the articles so they can dive into the arguments in the comment sections.
The same thing happens in other sites. Salon, an online political magazine, recently had to revise its new-ish comments policy. These things just take on a life of their own, and whoever owns the site has to decide what matters more -- the content they're paying writers to produce, or the comments generated by their readers.
But I think there's a broader problem at T-nation, which is that the participation kind of overrides the commerce. When someone like Chad Waterbury comes out with a terrific book like Muscle Revolution, it should be a front-page item for months, if not an entire year. Ditto TC's book, The Testosterone Principles, which is a really well-done compilation of his best and funniest columns.
But products like that disappear off the main page in a few days, and you have to scroll all the way to the bottom of the Biotest store to buy them.
So if anyone asked my opinion, my first piece of advice would be to get direct links to products on the front page of the site; don't make it so difficult for customers to find and purchase the books and supplements.
The second would be to de-emphasize the chatter, and re-emphasize the content that made the site popular in the first place. Their prime real estate on the main page is almost entirely taken up with links to forums and places to talk about articles, trainers, and products ... but with few direct links to the articles, and no direct links to purchase individual products.
If it was me, I'd change that, and I get the impression TC is moving in that direction. I'd have those changes in place before Chris Shugart comes out with his Velocity Diet book, whenever that is.
I have to agree with TC, the thing i like the most about this forum is the warm welcome and the great advice that everyone is willing to give around here...and if someone makes significant progress there isn't 5 people that jump on him accusing him of sterioids or some form of illegal supplementation, it would be a good idea to have to forum separate, but still you can't count out the intellgent discussion that ensues after the article is posted though
He needs to shaddup and get his ass in the kitchen six times a day. You gotta eat to get hyuge!
When I bulked to to 374 lbs. at 8% bf, then cut down to 290 at 2%, it was just simple science and the power of my indomitable will. Skinny boys like TC got no authoritay over me.
__________________ Megaloi -- My Blog
"Every society honors its live conformists and its dead troublemakers."
- Mignon McLaughlin
IMO you'd have to be a moron to judge the validity of a persons advice from their post count.
I couldn't agree more!
As it is, over at t-nation, I only read the articles, visit the Author's Locker Room, and buy stuff.
When I read the articles, I read the discussion, but I just keep hitting "page down" to skim for the author's name and his responses to a questions.
I take advice from you guys because I know you all and trust you. Over there, it's hard to know who's full of it and it's too frustrating to try to get to know anyone.
10+ pages of responses to TC's article, and I'm surprised at the visceral reactions to making the forum be an extra jump away. There would be no discernable change for those who live in the forums, and plenty of positives for Biotest. Fewer newbies would be run off, scared.
For the articles, I'd love the discussion to change to a Q&A format, where the user submits a question to the author and if the author answers it, both the Q and the A get posted under the article. Leave any discussion, if desired, to a separate thread on the forums.
As it is, over at t-nation, I only read the articles, visit the Author's Locker Room, and buy stuff.
When I read the articles, I read the discussion, but I just keep hitting "page down" to skim for the author's name and his responses to a questions.
I take advice from you guys because I know you all and trust you. Over there, it's hard to know who's full of it and it's too frustrating to try to get to know anyone.
10+ pages of responses to TC's article, and I'm surprised at the visceral reactions to making the forum be an extra jump away. There would be no discernable change for those who live in the forums, and plenty of positives for Biotest. Fewer newbies would be run off, scared.
For the articles, I'd love the discussion to change to a Q&A format, where the user submits a question to the author and if the author answers it, both the Q and the A get posted under the article. Leave any discussion, if desired, to a separate thread on the forums.
Agreed, i do the same as you. I like it how i can post a question about the article and get it answered, ive done so on a coupple of occationes and got smarter every time.
Doing it in a Q and A way would be a good idea.
Hey everyone. I'm a new guy here. I have been a T-nation lurker for several years and there has always been great information available on that site. But over time, the forums have become such a cancer over there, I just got sick of all the negativity. I recently found this site and I am so happy that I did. You guys represent a real communtiy/family that I hope to contribute to (although I'm much better at lurking!) Just wanted to thank everyone here cuz it's like finding a new home!
I have always been a loyal reader of T-Nation, but my method was exactly that of Lost Dog. I think there are pros and cons to what TC suggest, perhaps simple work blocks and tougher moderation would be better. Regardless if I just got the articles that would leave me happy enough as they are worth their weight in gold.
I am glad you joined, but I would like to point out that our forums are just very different despite our similar philosophies, so the atmosphere is a little different. Gobbla referred to our place as "anti-tnation"... I think a better term would be "t-nation-Lite."
I still lurk over there quite a bit myself. I used to post pretty heavily over there as well as many other forums, but as this place has gotten so busy I have gotten to where I rarely leave.
Thanks for the welcome JP! I still love the articles over there as well several of there suppliments. By I really enjoy the great posts in the forums here. Kinda like the best of both worlds!
I see T-Nation as a place to read great articles and buy products (if you wish to do that)
I dont see it as a message board forum. This place is a message board forum. Two totally different places.
Like most people, I go there to read and learn. The forum is shit for the most part there and I think that TC is starting to see that.
My opinion
I agree 100%. I think I posted there once or twice to ask the authors questions about their articles. Otherwise a good % of the posters are tools, 15 year old know it alls. Amazing what a computer can do to a stupid prepubescent kid.
I don't spend much time at T-Nation but I've found many of the articles very well-done and informative... usually the ones that get linked here!
I think, though, that gutting the forum and moving the discussion away from the articles can be a problem. I think it was one of Eric's shoulder savers articles where a few posters asked some really intelligent questions and Eric replied with some info that I found particularly enlightening. I really hope things like that aren't lost in the transition.
(Welcome, Onepack! This is a great place to be!)
__________________ The trick is in what one emphasizes. We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same. -- Carlos Castaneda
But like it or not, its these same weeners that are buying big money worth of supplements. No forums = less time on the site = less supplement sales I would imagine.
The forums are pretty rediculous over there sometimes, there is some good info I have found looking through there for sure.
I am like others where I read the articles and look for the author's name in the discussion that follows. I don't care what anyone else has to say other than the author.
And John is right, T-Nation has nothing on Bodybuilding.com......I've gotten in a few "discussions" on there with some of the teenagers, and many--not all--believe they have the answer for everything! All I have to do is go to my clasroom if I want that kind of attitude and disrespect. I don't ever remember being that bad as a teen, I mean, I thought I knew everything, but I was still open to listening to other people's thoughts and ideas.
But like it or not, its these same weeners that are buying big money worth of supplements. No forums = less time on the site = less supplement sales I would imagine.
Actually, I would suspect the exact opposite. I don't know which is true, but my guess would be that the people who spend the most time there aren't buying the products. Taking that idea further, I'd guess that the most combative non-customers are driving off some real and potential customers.
That would be an interesting question to ask TC or Tim -- they must have a way to correlate forum posts with purchases, unless people register one identity for posting and another for purchases.
Though I agree with all the comments regarding the over-abundance of belligerent, negative, and argumentative posters on the T-Nation forum, it's still the next site I go to immediately after this one. As has been said, the articles are gold, and much valuble information can also be gleaned from the answers and discussions surrounding legitimate, thoughtful questions and respectful questioning challenges. For this reason, I'd hate to see them dispense with the forum altogether. While I sometimes do find it exasperating, most of the time I just ignore the chest-thumping uuuh, uuuh of the trolls. (Red Lefty, LMAO )
I tend to agree with much of what Lou said in his comments, particularly the next to the last paragraph in his first post. Many others had some good points as well. Can't say as I can see any real reason to separate the forum discussion from it's position following the article as someone else suggested though, but having to click on a link following it shouldn't kill anyone either.
BTW, a warm welcome to onepack (soon to be sixpack?).
Trolls on msg boards are nothing new. I've been entertained by them on various msg boards before the internet was called the internet. Most people by now also know to ignore them.
What t-nation might need to do is look around for a better msg board system. One technology site I visit frequently (slashdot.org) has a moderation system which works pretty well. You can lower your viewing threshold and still see the trash if you want, but you don't have to. People who post comments that get moderated in a positive way with enough frequency have their future comments start with a higher level of moderation. The downside of this system is that it can reinforce some group think, but it weeds out the trash w/o any extra work from the site owners.
__________________
"Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." -- T.S. Eliot
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit."-- Aristotle
Actually, I would suspect the exact opposite. I don't know which is true, but my guess would be that the people who spend the most time there aren't buying the products. Taking that idea further, I'd guess that the most combative non-customers are driving off some real and potential customers.
That would be an interesting question to ask TC or Tim -- they must have a way to correlate forum posts with purchases, unless people register one identity for posting and another for purchases.
Agree. I think it would improve sales. People know where to go if they want to buy products. If you trust the stuff at T-Nation you will go there.
I know for a fact that people dont want to post there, and I know other "professionals" that dont want to submit articles. Not because they dont have thick skin, more so because there are worried about their business. Many people out there thrive on the internet for their business. Sometimes people jumping on and bashing authors can hurt sales. I dont blame there people for being hesitant.
There are teen-age know-it-alls on every forum. People expect that and most ignore these people. Its when you get grown adults, that should know better being worse than the 19 year old "expert" that really makes things worse.
I for one would not notice one bit if they did away with the forum over there. Keep the articles and the rest.
TC Keeps It Real
)
Linear Mode
