Stopped static stretching the hams

[karky]

i was reading this article by Eric Cressy: http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1406720

and i found this to be interresting:

Lesson #4: Quit static stretching the hamstrings. This year, after chatting with Stuart McGill, I stopped static stretching hamstrings unless there was a noticeable side-to-side discrepancy.
The results were nothing short of awesome. Athletes (myself included) got stronger and faster in a matter of weeks. We still use several dynamic stretches, though. If I can get it with ten two-second mobilizations, why would I want to waste time with a ten-second static hold that does little to impact the nervous system?

I usually do dynamic mobility drills for the hams pre training which is 1-2 sets 4 times a week and i also do 2-3 sets on 2 of my off days (along with other muscles too, ofcource)

Should i too stop static stretching the hams? I only do it post workout. What about other muscles, or is this something that specially relates to the hams?

[Kevin Littler]

Karky, do you feel you have a particular tightness in the hamstrings? A lot of people tend to focus on ham stretches due to a perceived tightness. The hamstrings aren't any different to other muscles per se, but do often get tight due to other biomechanical problems.

For example, if glutes are weak the hamstrings will compensate by becoming the dominant hip extensor. This overactivity will lead to tight hams. Stretching will alleviate the problem for a little while, but unless the glute strength is dealt with then the hams will tighten up again.

If glutes are weak/less active than hams then you also need to ask why this is the case. Tight hip flexors are often the cause, ie tight hip flexors lead to inhibited glutes, so hams take over and get tight.

So will stopping static ham stretching make you stronger and faster like EC? Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on the status of your lumbopelvic system (ie relative flexibility and activation patterns). Combining ham stretches with hip flexor stretches and glute activation exercises would deliver better results if you have chronic ham tightness.

EC's comment about 10 second holds not affecting the CNS is certainly true - a static stretch doesn't even commence having an effect on the CNS until at least 12-15 seconds (often much longer required), so a 10 second stretch won't achieve much that dynamic mobility drills won't.

[karky]

yeah, my hams arent overly tight or anything like that, they used to be, but after alot of both static and dynamic stretching they are comming along nicely. I do have an anterior pelvic tilt, so my hip flexors are tight and my butt is loose. I work on stretching the hip flexors and glute activation work before my workouts. Glute strenght has certanly improved and im able to fire them much better than i used to.

Im just wondering if it is nessecary to do both static AND dynamic stretching for the hams?

[Kevin Littler]

An anterior pelvic tilt is an excellent sign of functionally weak glutes and tight hip flexors, so you would likely be better off focussing on addressing these than static hamstring stretches.

Try substituting the static stretches for dynamic stretches for 3-4 weeks and see if you feel any difference. You probably wouldn't notice any difference in a shorter period than this, but its not so long as to mess up your posture or movement dynamics.

[John Izzo]

Karky:
Are you an ATHLETE that needs to get faster?
Are you an ATHLETE that get periodic testing done on his skills and performance (agilty, speed, etc).
Are you an ATHLETE where as the only means to a paycheck is the fact that you still play game to game?

Or are you a guy that sits at a desk or on his computer 8-10 hours out of the day and feels tightness in his lower back, hamstrings and hip flexors? My guess is the latter. Mobility work is great for all of us...no doubt about it. But if you have considerable tightness in your hamstrings--YES, you may need some static stretching. Once you improve considerablely, then you can incorporate more dynamic drills and phase out the static work in your prep. How long it takes you to get to that point where only mobilty work is done is dependant on your body's response and frequency.

Don't confuse articles on how athlete's train as a SURE-fire, FASTER way to advance your own training.

[bipennate]

Here's a simple "test," since determining if your hamstrings are functionally tight isn't always the easiest thing for people: take a look at your beltline-does it rest flat on your hips, more or less parallel to the ground, or does it angle downwards from your back to the front...if it's the latter, you're in anterior tilt, and you don't need to statically stretch the hamstrings, but you should pay attention to your hip flexors, as well as strengthening pelvic control and improving "lower ab" neural recruitment (think leg lifts)...also, if your nickname is "cheeks, bubble, badunk" or anything along those lines, you're anteriorly tilted.

[Mike Robertson]

Dude, how did you know?????

Originally Posted by bipennate

also, if your nickname is "cheeks, bubble, badunk" or anything along those lines, you're anteriorly tilted.

[K Manley]

some excerpts here that might shed some more light on what EC was getting at.

from the t-nation interview with Stuart McGill:
"When we test athletes who complain of being tight, and who have been stretching to deal with this sensation, many show their problem to be neurogenic tension – not always tight muscles. So, while stretching the back, hamstrings, and the like, may feel good as the stretch receptors are stimulated – the neural tissues are stretched causing more stiffness the next day. Worse yet are those who may have stiffness due to disc bulges, and stretching only makes the bulges larger."

from EC's newsletter:

There is really no support for bilateral stretching of the hamstrings to prevent and treat lower back pain. In most cases, the tightness people feel in their hamstrings is a neural tightness – not a purely soft-tissue phenomenon. Dr. McGill believes that the only time the hamstrings should be stretched is with an asymmetry. This is something I’ve been practicing for close to a year now with outstanding results; the tighter my hamstrings have gotten, the stronger and faster I’ve become. The secret is to build dynamic flexibility that allows us to make use of the powerful spring effect the hamstrings offer; static stretching – especially prior to movement – impairs this spring.

From McGill's book pg 277:
Stretching appears to increase the tolerance of the athlete to increased range of motion but not actual stiffness. This means the athlete feels less pain for that same force applied about a joint but the joint does not necessarily gain more motion.
*probably more quotes in there but I'm not done the book yet


From a performance standpoint Dan John talks in this video about how tight hamstrings can actually help many lifts.

Although I do know that EC wrote up a stretching routine for a friend of mine and I'm doing a program MR wrote me, both dealing with glute activation and APT and there is no static ham stretches in either. Mobility, soft tissue (in the EC one) but no static for the hams (and these are corrective, not performance, based).

And now my own take on it after all this referencing. I agree with Kevin that static stretching the hamstrings is at best just going to do way less than focusing effort on core stability, glute activation and hip flexor mobility. Tight hamstrings, like a tight lower back, are symptoms not causes for you. I know with the low back hyper-mobility will help LBP, but in the long run training for stiffness of the lumbar spine is going to be better for you. I get an inkling that the hamstrings have a similar relationship to the hips. But maybe I should finish reading McGill's book before I draw any of my own conclusions to this mystery(it'll probably turn out that the butler did it).

[bipennate]

Originally Posted by Mike Robertson

Dude, how did you know?????

Where do you think that my nickname comes from?

[Lost Dog]

A lot of people stretch hams because they THINK they are tight. Can't touch toes or raise them high during leg raises without feeling it in the hamstrings. But it could be other parts pulling/not relaxing to put your hamstrings in that position.

At last year's Summit, I told Bill I had tight hamstrings, no touching my toes, etc. 5 minutes later, he'd trained me to touch my toes. Other parts of my body were conspiring against me.

Too much dynamic hamstring stretching can actually make things worse. The stretching weakens them, allowing those nasty other body parts to pull on them harder, making them work less, and weaker still.

[Lost Dog]

Originally Posted by John Izzo

Karky:
Are you an ATHLETE that needs to get faster?
Are you an ATHLETE that get periodic testing done on his skills and performance (agilty, speed, etc).
Are you an ATHLETE where as the only means to a paycheck is the fact that you still play game to game?

Or are you a guy that sits at a desk or on his computer 8-10 hours out of the day and feels tightness in his lower back, hamstrings and hip flexors? My guess is the latter. Mobility work is great for all of us...no doubt about it. But if you have considerable tightness in your hamstrings--YES, you may need some static stretching. Once you improve considerablely, then you can incorporate more dynamic drills and phase out the static work in your prep. How long it takes you to get to that point where only mobilty work is done is dependant on your body's response and frequency.

Don't confuse articles on how athlete's train as a SURE-fire, FASTER way to advance your own training.

John,

You and Chaney need to duke this one out.

We say we're not athletes and Chaney says we are. We say we're training like athletes and you say to be careful, because we're not athletes...

For what it's worth, I don't consider myself an athlete, nor do I train, rest, or eat like one.

[John Izzo]

Originally Posted by Lost Dog

John,

You and Chaney need to duke this one out.

We say we're not athletes and Chaney says we are. We say we're training like athletes and you say to be careful, because we're not athletes...

For what it's worth, I don't consider myself an athlete, nor do I train, rest, or eat like one.

I understand Chaney's point and agree that we should train like athletes WHEN WE GET TO THAT POINT (progression). Every general population client I train doesn't start with advanced moves. There is a foundation (basics) that is acknowledged so that I can establish exercise adherence, movement awareness, and commitment. Those 3 factors are ALREADY established in advanced lifters or athletes.

ALso LD, the term "training like an athlete" to me, really means training in a 'movement sensative environment' with changing speed, velocity, and loads.

We get so caught up in these articles that are written with a special population in mind, and not to say they are inaccurate becuase 9 times out of 10 they are 100% accuarte...BUT, we have alot of new or novice lifters around here and everyone is always intrigued by what can get that to where they wanna go faster without honoring the basics.

All I am saying...looking at karky's avatar ( and this is by no means to be offensive)...the kid doesn;t look like an athlete. Hypothetically, say I was his trainer. My goal would be to get him to that point (to look and perform like an athlete) step by step utilizing the 3 factors I outlined above.

[bipennate]

Originally Posted by John Izzo

All I am saying...looking at karky's avatar ( and this is by no means to be offensive)...the kid doesn;t look like an athlete.

What? You don't recognize a throwback football helmet when you see one???

[Lost Dog]

John, I agree with you. In fact, I meant to type that part in my post. Oops.

I think Chaney was implying that we are all athletes. That it's just the degree that needs to be considered (weekend warrior, lifter 3-4 times per week, student athlete, olympic athlete, elite professional athlete, etc.). While I agree with his way of thinking, it's using the actual word that's the mistake. On the lower part of the scale, it implies that you are more able than you, likely, are.

It's sort of a semantics and "principal of the thing" issue with me. All we have is our words/language, and when we expand the range of application without altering the meaning, we get into trouble (ie., we lower the bar to be considered an athlete without making it clear that we've lowered the bar).

Obviously, I love words. I use them all day long. I like to know that everyone agrees on the meaning of the words.

[bipennate]

Originally Posted by Lost Dog

Obviously, I love words.

I love... carpet. I love... desk. I love lamp.

[Lost Dog]

Originally Posted by bipennate

I love... carpet. I love... desk. I love lamp.