Timmy asks for deadlift help. - JP Fitness Forums

TimmyTM · 03-06-2007, 01:44 PM

Alright, it's time I asked for help. If only to see what response I get.

After getting frustrated with HGM, I ditched it and decided to start deadlifting again, as it had been AGES since I'd deadlifted. I recalled that my problems seem to be off the floor. So I thought, "Okay, work the floor." So for the past four weeks, I've been doing deadlifts while standing on a 6 inch platform. Okay, it's an estimation, I put my hand next to it, marked it off, and measured when I got home. I'm a resourceful college student like that.

With deficits, I find the first rep is the hardest. After that, subsequent reps are a little easier. I pause at the bottom of each rep to avoid bouncing the weight. After 4 sets of 4 with 225 lbs on Saturday, I hit failure on the fifth set. Bar didn't budge.

So today I decided to return to the floor and see if this pain in the ass was worth it. (Pulling from a deficit has this ability to cause pain in my glutes immediately after a set.) My previous best was 245 lbs. That was last June. This was today's attempt:

3 @ 135 lbs
2 @ 225 lbs
F @ 255 lbs
2 @ 225 lbs
F @ 245 lbs

What seemed strange to me is that the weight actually felt heavier as compared to when I was standing on a platform. I was under the impression the weight would feel lighter once I returned the floor. Tricking the body and all that jive. At least when I attempted it last December the bar moved a few inches. This time, didn't budge.

So.

Since this morning I've been pondering how to tackle this. First impulse was a muscular weakness. Slam the hamstrings! Slam the quads! But that seems silly. I'm not that strong - all of my legs need to get stronger!

There's that fact that the first rep feels hardest. Could it be a problem just generating force and activating enough muscle fibers? I wonder if it would be useful to lower the weight and do cluster sets, just practice generating force. Well, lower the weight so I don't screw up form. I know damn well my hips rise too fast relative to my shoulders.

Left to my own devices, I'd work my assistance lifts, maybe toss in some power cleans somewhere, and otherwise try anything else I haven't done. All else fails, there's that masochistic program Alwyn Cosgrove wrote for Mahler. But that's as last-resort as Ian King's Limping program. Under glass with a hammer next to them, I say.

I'm taking the next week off, so if I get any inspirations, I can change my next routine. I'm planning an A/B split, alternating lower-rep back squats with higher-rep RDLs. Hey, I've never done low-rep squats, I'm curious to see what will happen. It may not be as popular as an upper/lower split, but I've had luck with an A/B split before.

Anyway, I talk too much. I don't need to do everything at once, it's a long-term project. Nonetheless. Uh. Any suggestions?

Jason B · 03-06-2007, 01:57 PM

Just posted this yesterday in Matthew's log, it's sort of similar

Quote:

And I saw you commented earlier that you're using deficit deads to improve a sticking point at the bottom, I'm not telling you to change it now, everyone is different and I think your should stick it out and see if it works for you, but I tried it for quite some time last year and backfired for me. I was doing speed pulls and ME pulls from a deficit thinking that when I went back to the floor I would blast through it, well the opposite happened. It felt heavier off the floor, I could actually pull from a deficit more than from the floor. My best guess at the reason is two-fold:

1) As much as you try, pulling from a deficit will always put you in a different position than you pull from the floor, training the wrong movement and motor pattern.

2) When you pull from a deficit, the bar will actually have more momentum when you reach your sticking point (about mid-shin to knee level), which is what you DON'T want. It may seem great, that you're blasting through it, but momentum is your enemy when you're trying to build strength. If momentum is pushing it through that point, your not overloading that point.

Now, that being said, deficit deadlifts have a place, for developing hip power and back mass (particularly snatch-grip), but I think they work against you when used regularly to break that sticking point.

And the reason you're stronger on subsequent sets is because that's reversal strength, which is stronger than starting strength. No matter how long you think you pause between sets, the stretch reflex is still there. I like the idea of lowering your weight and doing clusters. Pull singles, and walk away from the bar each time, that will build that first rep.

I. Kay · 03-06-2007, 01:59 PM

My first thought is that the reason it seems more difficult off the floor is that your angle and form changes... for the worse.

It's all about leverage, and I'm guessing your hips and back are in a less advantageous position once you pull "regular". In other words, your form changes. What you practiced in the deficit isn't how you actually deadlift.

While doing the deficit pulls, you may have shifted your hips back more, because you were so conscious of the defecit. Going back to normal, your angle changes and your leverage may have shifted to what is always has been... which may simply mean that you are not utilizing the strength you gained in the past weeks.

*I see Jason already said some of the same stuff above...

Frank.S · 03-06-2007, 04:02 PM

After each rep of the deadlift, stand up quickly without the bar then go back down and grap it. The reps will take longer but they will help you off the floor.

TimmyTM · 03-06-2007, 07:33 PM

Now I see why the dogma of never doing deadlifts for multiple reps exists. Next time I do conventional deadlifts, I'll either stand up after each rep, or I'll cluster-set them.

You guys rule.

Alcoholiday · 03-06-2007, 08:12 PM

i can't believe someone didn't comment on this yet.

You've been pulling for 5 consecutive weeks!

If you're natural, pulling week after week without a deload every third will run you down. Deadlifts are one of the most CNS intensive exercises you can do. I deadlifted yesterday (3x3), and this morning, i didn't want to wake up. That's why you feel like you've been hit by a truck the morning after a good volume, heavy deadlift workout.

Deficit deadlifts make deadlifts feel soo much easier for me. They put you in a more awkward position to pull. It's like doing snatch grip pulls. Yea, it's not the same position that you're going to pull from the floor from, but it makes it harder. Tons of people have done deficit pulls and gotten great gains. Just because it doesn't work for some, doesn't mean it won't work for you. Just because it does, doesn't mean it doesn't for others.

I pull once every other week heavy, and then take every third week off, so sometimes, i'm not pulling heavy for 3 weeks. It works well.

I don't know if you really need to be pulling from a deficit yet. You should be able to pull from the floor for reps, and make gains every time you pull.

This is of course, if you're eating enough calories.

TimmyTM · 03-06-2007, 09:19 PM

I've been on top of my sleep, and I've been eating as best I can. I've been slowly gaining weight - I know caloric surplus is critical to recovery. I actually have felt just fine the day after deadlifting.

Pulling from a deficit was me Bush Doctrining. Heh. I thought "Surely when I return to the floor, it'll feel like a breeze!"

If I'm going to do this, I should work in deloading. Actually, I planned to take this little experiment as far as I could, then take a week off. I guess I feel like I'm not at a point where deloading is necessary beyond a week off every few months?

Alcoholiday · 03-06-2007, 09:29 PM

weightlifting has a lot to do w/ conditioning your cns to the loads. It's not about how big you are necessarly. To you, the loads you are lifting are maximal. So, you do need to deload every few weeks. You shouldn't look at it like the loads are light compared to an elite athlete. You should look at it like the loads are heavy for you at this moment.

TimmyTM · 03-06-2007, 09:38 PM

Well stated. Lift hard, rest hard.

I suppose like so many I'm victim of not really knowing what to do with myself when I don't lift, or feeling inadequate when I'm not doing "enough". All the more reason to optimize the time I am lifting near maximal loads.

evancj · 03-07-2007, 08:19 PM

I'll put in another recommendation for stepping back from the bar in between each rep and resetting.

That being said, the first rep used to be harder for me too, even when doing singles. I think it's because I wasn't quite sure just what I was in for. It sounds cheesy, but the way to change this is to get yourself really psyched up. I take a huge breath before the lift and tense every muscle in my body. If I don't feel the deadlift start in my abs, like a punch to the gut, I know I'm not doing it right.

I've found the same thing to be true with benching and squatting as well. You are lifting a big heavy thing. Squeeze the bar, rip it off the floor. Try to make yourself feel angry, like a caveman!

Jason B · 03-07-2007, 08:52 PM

Why is that cheesy? You should tighten up before every lift, that's not cheesy, it's smart.

evancj · 03-07-2007, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason B

Why is that cheesy? You should tighten up before every lift, that's not cheesy, it's smart.

I stand corrected.

GqArtguy · 03-07-2007, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alcoholiday

i can't believe someone didn't comment on this yet.

You've been pulling for 5 consecutive weeks!

If you're natural, pulling week after week without a deload every third will run you down.

Meh, Ive done Oly setups where Im squatting and pulling 5 days a week. Its not that bad

And even when I did do a Starr setup, I did that for 4-5 months of just basics and going as heavy as I could.

Quote:

Deadlifts are one of the most CNS intensive exercises you can do. I deadlifted yesterday (3x3), and this morning, i didn't want to wake up.

I agree but at a newbie level, you can pull often and moderately heavy and still make gains.

ParanoidAndroid · 03-07-2007, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GqArtguy

I agree but at a newbie level, you can pull often and moderately heavy and still make gains.

This is very true. When I started lifting, I could lift heavy and set a deadlift PR every week.

Mahler · 03-08-2007, 07:26 AM

Timmy,
Check my log for a Deadlift Improvement Program. If you need the logs, give me a holler.

TimmyTM · 03-08-2007, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahler

Timmy,
Check my log for a Deadlift Improvement Program. If you need the logs, give me a holler.

Way ahead of you, I already have most of the skeleton memorized. I like looking at routines and seeing what makes it what it is.

Alcoholiday · 03-08-2007, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GqArtguy

Meh, Ive done Oly setups where Im squatting and pulling 5 days a week. Its not that bad

And even when I did do a Starr setup, I did that for 4-5 months of just basics and going as heavy as I could.

I agree but at a newbie level, you can pull often and moderately heavy and still make gains.

i don't agree. Yea, if the person is pulling the bar, then they're going to pull every week. But, he's pulling multiple sets close to his max for 5 weeks. That's burnout.

And your oly setups are w/ different loads. You're not going maximal every week on deadlifts and squats.