Full body: mixing rep ranges or not?

[Espi]

Thought to repost a Q from my log.

Currently I'm planning my new workout routine that'll start in a few weeks. The big question is : should I mix rep ranges within 1 workout or not.

My old time favourite routine is the one I got early in my 'lifting career' from a cyclist that loved lifting weights as much as I do. The only thing it lacked was some isolation work for arms/shoulders/calves/abs.
It was:
- lift 3x/wk and do a full body workout by doing
5x5 / 3x8 / 2x15 for chest /back/legs and rotate this
so
5x5 for chest on day 1 / back on day 2/ legs on day 3
2x15 for chest on day 2 / back on day 3/ legs on day 1
3x8 for chest on day 3 / back on day 1/ legs on day 2

Over time, I've adapted it a bit by adding isolation work for arms, plus adding periodization so that in reality reps go down from like 9-4 / 20-12 / 12-6 because of the weights that I kept adding to it.
For a while I even had it changed into a '4'split routine by splitting legs in 2 parts (hams/quads) and doing extremely light lifting on day 2.

Like 5x5/2x30/2x15/3x8 .
Both routines gave very good strength gains and enough recovery time while being almost similar to a 'normal split' routine.

However, most approaches that resemble this routine always have you do
5x5 for all body parts on day 1
3x8 for all body parts on day 2
2x15 for all body parts on day 3

Why is that? Is that a better approach..?
Some say it is because you are giving conflicting signals to the body by doing different rep ranges.
My idea is that my approach is better because one is actually doing a 3-split while still training full body so you give 1 body part the utmost attention with a 5x5 routine and then let it recover the next lifting day.

Yet I don't know anyone who's using this particular routine, except for the cyclist who once gave it to me.

[Lost Dog]

I mix on the same day.

I start with my low rep stuff and leave higher rep stuff for later in the workout.

I hear you on confusing the body. I try not to jump around much in the workout. Once things got all busy in the gym and I was swapping exercises around. Supersets got mixed and matched and it was things like RDL at 4x6 with DB Bench at 3x12. I'm sure it wasn't my best, but I survived. I wouldn't plan it that way, though.

Most of these guidelines keep the same set/rep throughout the day for simplicity's sake, I guess.

[Chiron]

I've mixed it up like that before. I prefer it to sticking with the same basic rep range for each exercise on that day and had good results. I think the "conflicting signal" argument is pretty unfounded. They might have a point if you did those two rep ranges with the same muscle group, but even then I don't think it's likely. I think that's underestimating the adaptive abilities of the body and forgetting our bodies are smarter than we are.

[Scott~]

I workout TH/SAT/MON and alternate rep ranges of 3x15, 4x10, and 5x5.

[Espi]

Thanks I'll go ahead and just do it again.
Back in 2004 when I did a 4-day split variation and starting out from extremely high reps (30-40!) I had freaking brilliant overall strength gains (both endurance and pure strength).Even now, I still haven't surpassed some of the feats I pulled then.. partly because I was really on a huge bulk (maintaining at 2700 kcal as I was building back LBM!).
Nowadays I'm stronger in the lower reps thanks to better warm up routines (less reps, heavier loading = better 'firing' patterns).

I will slightly adapt it so that reps will be a tad lower.

Instead of
- 20 down to 12
- 12 down to 6
- 9 down to 4
I'll try something like
- 20 down to 12
- 10 down to 4
- 7 down to 2-3

so I'll be focussing a tad more on strength.

It's a neat way to achieve a kind of 3-split while still training full body. I guess that there are more people who feel that they haven't trained properly when not having done at least challenging compound exercise!

[D.ROBERTS]

Its always good to mix things up i like to do heavy exercises at the beginning and the do some high rep work after possibly somewhere between 8-15reps.Try it and see?its trial and error there is no right answer to training its what works for you!

[Frank.S]

Ive always liked doing the first excersice in a different rep range then the rest. What im doing right im really like.
First excercise (big multi joint movement) for 5 sets of 3 reps
Then 3 more at 6 reps and 4 sets.

I find this lets me concentrate on the first lift a little more and not get burnt out on the rest. No wrong way you can do it in most cases, just change it up every once in a while.

[Espi]

Frank, you made me think about even further increasing volume on lat exercises re the pullups.. I managed up to 8 singles in the past but that was with a huge amount of extra exercises, might try to limit exercises and do more volume for pullups.

[Espi]

Next workout schedule will be a full body workout with different emphasis each time, so it's like a hybrid between a conventional 3-split and a full body WO.
I hesitated between a 4- and a 3-split but eventually decided to lump the legs (quads/hams) together rather than dissociate them because I only wanted to do 3 lifting sessions/week and keep everyting within a weekly schedule. Doing all of the heavy leg exercises on 1 day makes for a much heavier training. However that day will become an anabolik junkfood/free day!

All sessions will be done on fixed days, as opposed to my previous 'exercise every other day' routine: Tuesday - Thursday - Saturday - Sun- or Monday.
Tue-Th-Sat is for lifting. Sun/Mon for a long cardio session plus a couple of weird/odd/fun/difficult/techni cal exercises mostly aimed at balance, flexibility.. all things I barely have the patience for normally, but which are interesting nonetheless.

Setup:
light = 2 sets of 1 exercise @ 20-12 RM
medium = 3 sets of 2 exercises @ 12-6 RM
1st exercise = speed work = approx. half of the reps indicated
2nd exercise = 3 drop sets (or pyramid down) starting at highest weight
heavy = 6 waveloading sets of 1 exercise @ 7-3 reps (perhaps more/less)

The following exercises will be used
light (metabolic work)
Tues quads : leg extension
Tues hams: leg curl
Tues shoulders: lateral raise
Tues balance: renegade rows (UB) - db Bulgarians (LB) = static supported

Th back: lat pull down / pullup singles and/or supine rows

Sat chest: pec deck (or flyes)
Sat abs: Saxon side bend

medium speed/dropsets

Tues chest: incline db press drop sets (no speed sets)
Tues triceps: rope pushdown dropsets
Tues abs: wood chop dropsets

Th quads: speed goblet squat, 1-leg press dropsets
Th hams: speed RDL , pull through dropsets
Th shoulders: face pull dropsets
Th balance: 1-leg DL (static unsupported)

Sat back: speed pullups, BB BOR dropsets
Sat biceps: hammer curl dropsets


heavy waves
Tues back: pullup ladders w added weight (1234321 etc.)
Tues biceps: EZ-curl

Th chest: db press
Th triceps: EZ-extension
Th abs: cable crunch or Swiss ball w dbs/disks

Sat quads: bb front squat
Sat hams: RDL
Sat shoulders: military press
Sat balance: stepups & lunges (dynamic)


I'm now filling in the weights for the next month which is a bit tricky esp for wave loading and speed work, but I'll do my best.. if it's too low /high I'll adjust. Also will need to adjust amt of total sets if it becomes too much.. it's not finished yet.

Comments are welcome!

[Frank.S]

Looks interesting. I think you are overcomplicating things a little bit though and to many excercises. On tuesday you have 9 things your are planning on doing. I realize that 4 of them are 'light' but high rep work ive found to be really demanding.

Something as simple as:

Compound movement (squat, bench, dead, pullup, chinup, row, overhead press...)
push (overhead press, bench, extension, dip...)
pull (row, chin/pull, rack pull...)
Unilateral leg (Split Squat, lunge, 1leg rdl...)
core (abs)

Would probally be a lot easier to follow, track gains and evaluate progress. I dont really know how you would fill in weights for a full month, predicting that is impossible if you are progressing in my opinion. Things like drop sets and pyramids are fun for a while but probally not ideal to be constantly doing them.

Just my 2 cents. The program you made is decent, it just looks like a bit to much imo.

[Espi]

I'm not completely ready yet with the planning, but that was exactly why I wanted to 'throw it in the group' already to see what might be wrong.

One major problem is : too much candy in the Iron Candy Shop = so many fun exercises, yet so little time and.. esp. the basics still need to be covered.

Another problem = not being entirely clear on the purposes. Yes, I like to be strong(er) but it doesn't really matter to me whether this is low- or high-rep strenght increase. I'm especially digging it when metabolism is high so I get to eat more or lose more fat. Having a full body schedule seems to be vital for that latter aspect.

[Espi]

Finally finished planning for 3 out of 4 workouts.

The working title is: Triple Anti-KISS - 2 (version 2 of an earlier similar workout schedule)

Tuesday
back: pull up ladder w added wt = 4-5 s heavy
hams: RDL = 1 WU set + 2x3s waveloading heavy
chest: incline db press 3s down moderate
biceps: EZ curl 3s down moderate
shoulders: face pull 3 s down moderate
abs: wood chop : 2s down moderate
quads: goblet squat 2s easy
balance: renegade row

Thursday
chest : db press = 1 WU set + 2x3s waveloading heavy
quads: goblet squat = 3s speed moderate
quads: bb front squat = 3s pyramid down moderate
triceps : EZ triceps extension = 3s pyramid down moderate
shoulders: BB Military Press = 3 s pyramid down moderate
abs: cable crunch 2s down moderate
hams: leg curl = 2s easy
back: pull up = 2s easy

Saturday
quads: leg press = 1 WU set + 2x3s waveloading heavy
hams: pull through = 3s speed moderate
back: pull up = 3s speed moderate
erector: good morning = 3s down moderate
back: bent-over-row = 3s down moderate
balance: step ups or lunges 2s down moderate
chest: BW push up 2s easy

The 4th one on Monday is solely devoted to longer cardio PLUS odd exercises and will change every workout. When trying it out past Monday Feb 5 for the first time, I was so incredibly tired 1 day later, that I decided to only do this every other week, which brings the frequency of lifting back to 7x / 14 days.
Most of the lifts I do on Monday can be found in T-Nation, starting with: Exercises You've Never Tried Before #1. I also did some flexibility work as indicated in NROL (New Rules of Lifting). While the # of sets wasn't too much, the workout gave amazing CNS-fatigue: 1-arm DL, 1-arm biceps curl are very difficult!

Cardio on Tues-Thurs-Sat: 10 min interval/HIIT cardio and if I feel like it another 10 min SS .
Cardio on Mon: 10 min rowing or step mill + 30 min HELLS.

Until my hip gets really better, no indoor cardio whatsoever. Only outdoor cycling (functional rides) and some walks.

When spring finally arrives, I plan to slowly start cycling longer distances again and probably participate in organized rides. Here these are done on Saturday, so I could alternate between cycling on Saturday every other week, lift on Sunday, and then have Monday as a restday versus lifting on Saturday, resting on Sunday and then do odd lifts on Monday.