HIITs vs Cross Country Program

[Marykaa]

HIITs are something very specifique.. but wouln't a Cross-country program on the same machine (elipitcal) do almost the same thing weight loss wise?

I do HIITs only once a week .. about for 20 mins +warm-up and cool-down.

But twice a week I do cross-country programs.. that's like runing up and down hills.. with the resistance going from 6 to 14.. and my heart doing pretty much the same limits as in HIITs just at a little slower CHANGING from low to high. those programes I do 40 and 60 minutes..

this is something I've been wondering for a long time.. but up til a while ago.. I couldn't manage the cross-country program for the full 60 mins.

[RacerBill]

I'd guess that it's very similar in principle, but not quite the same. HIIT intervals are gagued by your subjective effort level -- 3 for rest, 9 for work, with 10 representing your all-out top effort. I imagine the rest/work proportions are based on some studies but I guess I just take that on faith! [img]smile.gif[/img] As you adapt to HIIT, your work setting will go up.

The cross-country program on the machine is pre-set and won't change with you, and most likely the rest/work proportions will be different. At first the weight loss will probably be quite similar, but once your body adapts to the program, the weight loss will taper off.

[ninja]

This was posted on May 6 from a Craig Ballantyne newsletter:


Ellipticals are Useless for Advanced Fat Loss

If you are using an elliptical-type machine for intervals, then I believe that you are not getting the results you deserve. In my opinion, the elliptical machines are one of the least effective methods for losing fat - just as bad as spinning classes (which I'll cover in a future newsletter).

Now you might know someone that is uses the elliptical all the time and is lean. But I will be the farm that they can thank their genetics, their strength training, and their nutrition for their results. I have yet to see someone transform their physique with the elliptical trainer. In fact, when someone comes to me with a failing program, I often see them using the elliptical for their interval training. And that's the first things I change.

The elliptical machine is sneaky, and it fools us three ways. First, you can get your heart rate up really high and easily. Second, you can get a big sweat on. And third, the machine tells you that you have burned an awful lot of calories (even though the calorie counter is likely inaccurate, as was shown on a CBS news report).

So why doesn't the elliptical work? Because you just don't do as much mechanical work as you do when you run or cycle. Basically, it's just easier and less effective. Getting your heart rate up is not the key determinant of fat loss.

Your body is a well programmed machine. It's 'wired' to increase heart rate and breathing as soon as it senses motion (that's why you start to breathe heavily after taking a single flight of stairs - it's not just because you are unfit).

The key factor in fat loss is the amount of work done. Until you learn to separate the influence of the two, you won't be using intervals in the best possible manner.

As fat loss expert Alwyn Cosgrove explains, "The problem is not the elliptical itself -- it's just that it tends to allow/promote momentum (as most people have the resistance too low) from bodyweight alone. So unless you crank up the resistance and actually produce some force and/or MOVE your bodyweight - it's nothing but momentum. So if you're not actively using your muscles to produce some sort of force you aren't burning many calories."

But even then, I still don't think using a high resistance level on the ellliptical will get you the results you are looking for. Yet despite their ineffectiveness, elliptical machines and the like remain a popular training method. But that's only due to the human condition - like flowing water, we seek the path of least resistance. We'll will do anything to get around obstacles rather than doing the real work required to overcome the obstacles. Given the choice, humans always go with the easiest option.

Compare the elliptical to the Stairmaster. Stairmasters are more effective but less popular. Why? Because we've found something easier (the elliptical) that still gives us the comfort of a sweat and an elevated heart rate (even if we don't get the results). And now millions of gym goers pat themselves on the back after flailing around on the elliptical for 30 minutes and thinking they've been shedding fat.

Training in your comfort zone is useless. Your metabolic rate will increase when your body is forced to change. The harder and smarter you train, the greater your increase in metabolic rate. That is why you have to do things the right way (the TT way!), to lose fat. As I've always said with Turbulence Training, the key to getting results is making your body change. That means using training techniques that demand your body to change. The elliptical will not cause your body to change. It is a waste of time.

So what works better? If you have my TT reports, you know I recommend the stationary bike. It's safe, effective, and convenient. You can work at a very high power outage, and that is no illusion. You are doing the work (as long as you are not spinning at a very high RPM - that is another waste of time!).

Of course, you can also use sprinting. But that has a few more risks to it, whether it is done on a treadmill (risk: falling) or outside (risk: muscle pulls - so prepare appropriately). Some other manly fat loss interval options are sled pulling, Farmer Walks, pushing heavy objects, wheelbarrow carries, and complexes.

[Marykaa]

RACER.. the cross country program is pre set but I can adjust both the cross ramp and the resistance and I DO, I take every hill to the limit that i can take.... but I am willing to do more HIITs since I have reached the idea that I had.. of being able to do the cc programmes for 60 minutes..

do you know how many minutes of HIIT does it take to be worth while? maybe I can do just a section of the 60 mins in HIIT.. and also.. for my xc-skiing.. my intervals are 15-90 /60-120 / 180-180 (seconds.. they all have different ratios of effort/rest..

when you say a ratio of 9-3 for the effort and rest.. what timing are you talking about?

and thanks for helping : )

[Marykaa]

NBJJKU

thanks for posting.. I know you didn't write the article but I'll still say this..

"The problem is not the elliptical itself -- it's just that it tends to allow/promote momentum (as most people have the resistance too low) from bodyweight alone. So unless you crank up the resistance and actually produce some force and/or MOVE your bodyweight - it's nothing but momentum. So if you're not actively using your muscles to produce some sort of force you aren't burning many calories."

I use the METs to check if I'm working hard enough.. with the resistance up at 12 or 14 very often.. I can only go up to 20 mets during short HIIT and during the "hills" I put the resistance around 10.. but still stay around 12 METS..

so I think I'm not one of the lazy ones the article is talking about. and I like the fact that on the at least one of the elipticals I can work my arms as well .

but it was a good read. I do see quite a few people just using momentum..

[Brian A.]

Originally posted by Marykaa:
RACER.. the cross country program is pre set but I can adjust both the cross ramp and the resistance and I DO, I take every hill to the limit that i can take.... but I am willing to do more HIITs since I have reached the idea that I had.. of being able to do the cc programmes for 60 minutes..

do you know how many minutes of HIIT does it take to be worth while? maybe I can do just a section of the 60 mins in HIIT.. and also.. for my xc-skiing.. my intervals are 15-90 /60-120 / 180-180 (seconds.. they all have different ratios of effort/rest..

when you say a ratio of 9-3 for the effort and rest.. what timing are you talking about?

and thanks for helping : )

I think you might be confusing HR intervals with timed intervals. True HIIT intervals are not timed. The 9-3 that Racer is talking about is based on the RPE (Rate of Precieved Exersion) scale. In my opinion it's more like a 9 in work and a 5 or 6 in recovery. I look at RPE mor like percentage of max intinsity, so from that standpoint a 3 would be way to low to recover to.

Basicly, the way you want to do the HIIT workout is after a proper warmup you increase your intensity until you reach about 90% of your max HR or a 9 out of 10 on the RPE. Once you reach that level you should decrease your intensity until you've recovered your heart rate to 55-60% of max HR (5.5-6 RPE). As soon as you reach that level of recovery you should immediatly increase the intensity and head back for the 90%.

Because this type of training is dependent on your heart rate and level of exersion, the time of the work/rest intervals is not important. The more conditioned you are the faster your recovery times will be and the more intervals you will get in durring your workout.

[Marykaa]

BRIAN thanks : )

for my timed intervals.. I found info on a xc-skiing page that got me into planning them..
I do 15-90s / 60-120s / 180-180s and for each I have a goal of mets to reach during the intervals. of course they are different according to the lengths of time.

In my 15-90s I go up to 20 METS.. and do as many intervals as I can.. (14 last time)
Most of the time my HR comes down to 122 after the first few intervals.. and then comes down less.. but that's ok.. I need all kinds of cardio qualities for xc-skiing.

But sometimes I do my 40 mins cardio (stair climber and other machines) as you say.. going up and down.. I call it my Fartlek training.. though I know that name has changed meanings since it was first devised..

When I do the preset programs for cross ramp or cross country.. I still always adjust according to how I'm doing.. usually have to perk things up in the middle.. then back down near the end.

Do you believe in mixing-up cardio stuff weekly or do you think a person should stick with one method for a while?

[Brian A.]

Originally posted by Marykaa:
Do you believe in mixing-up cardio stuff weekly or do you think a person should stick with one method for a while?

It depends on the goal of your cardio. If you are training for any specific event or skill, keep to that type of cardio. Following the SAID (Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demands) priciple, the transfer of training will not be good between different methods of cardio training. In other words a cyclist can increase his endurance and improve his VO2 max through running, but it won't carry over well to his cycling.

[Brian A.]

double post

[Brian A.]

Triple post? How the hell did I do that? Man I'm all screwed up today.

[Marykaa]

Thanks brian.. three times thanks [img]smile.gif[/img]