I wonder if the fact that I was using DB's to do the deads contributed to my low back strain. It occured to me that I'm having to go lower to reach them than a BB. Bet that had a bit to do with it. Maybe DB's isn't a good idea unless you raise them somehow.
Just a random thought I had. Be careful out there. Don't follow Jimbo.:p
I use a 12 inch high box that I also use for Box squats to prop the DB's up. I figure you were adding 6-8 inched to the ROM by going down to the floor. Were you doing that for each rep?
I use a 12 inch high box that I also use for Box squats to prop the DB's up. I figure you were adding 6-8 inched to the ROM by going down to the floor. Were you doing that for each rep?
Afraid so. Now where is that "boy was I ever dumb" emoticom?
Seems learning while lifting can be a painful process.
Eric Cressey had a recent article at T-Nation about strengthening the lats, Lats: Not Just for Pulldowns, that also contains some pertinent information about squats, deads and back stabilization. He discusses how hip mobility and lumbar stability work together to create a strong squat or deadlift.
Here's the relevant section:
Quote:
Building a Big Squat and Deadlift — and Keeping the Lower Back and Hips Healthy
Ever been in a canoe? If so, have you ever tried to shoot a cannon out of it? Probably not, and not just because you don't own a cannon!
The fact of the matter is that stability is a prerequisite for any kind of strength and power movements. Specific to the squat and deadlift, we know that the overwhelming majority of the force is developed in the lower body. And it should come as no surprise that most programs you see that are written to improve the squat and deadlift focus on building leg strength.
However, think about where the resistance you're trying to move is located on these two exercises. On the squat, it's on your upper back. On the deadlift, it's in your hands. The force you generate has to get to the upper extremities in some fashion, and the lats are an important part of that process.
The force we generate crosses the pelvis into the thoracolumbar fascia, a large bunch of connective tissue onto which the lats (along with several other muscles) attach. The lats work with the other core stabilizers to transfer that force to the bar. If they're weak, some of the force escapes, and you can't move the kind of weights you ought to be able to move.
It works in the other direction, too. Your lats are actually powerful stabilizers of the lumbar spine. As Stuart McGill has discussed in Ultimate Back Fitness and Performance and his seminars, core stability is about the synergistic contribution of several muscles that all fire simultaneously to stabilize our spine. Through its attachment on the thoracolumbar fascia, the lats have an important influence on ensuring multi-directional stability at the lumbar spine. If you need to be told that lumbar spine stability is a prerequisite for a big squat or deadlift, you probably ought to take up crocheting.
And, indirectly, we can keep our hips healthy by keeping our lumbar spine stable. If we're stable in the lumbar spine, it's easier for us to develop hip mobility. Since Mike Robertson and I have been proclaimed "The Mobility Guys" since our Magnificent Mobility DVD came out, I can pretty much promise you that it's all related. Stabilize your spine and you won't see as many hamstring, hip flexor, and adductor strains; anterior hip pain; adhesions in the piriformis and gluteus medius; or any of a host of other problems.
So what's the secret to using the lats on a squat? Regardless of the width of your grip, pull the bar down into your upper back and tuck the elbows in tight (isometric extension and adduction, respectively). You'll also notice that this will pop your chest up, making it easier to stay upright for the lift.
As a little aside, not being able to use the lats as much is one of the reasons that people are traditionally weaker on the front squat. By elevating the upper arms, you're taking the lats out of the picture to some degree. They can't fire as much when they're lengthened.
The deadlift isn't quite as easy. Your best bet is just to make sure that two of the last cues you give yourself in the set-up are "bar close to shins" and "shoulder blades pulled down."
The whole article is worth reading. Eric is a very smart guy.
Eric Cressey had a recent article at T-Nation about strengthening the lats, Lats: Not Just for Pulldowns, that also contains some pertinent information about squats, deads and back stabilization. He discusses how hip mobility and lumbar stability work together to create a strong squat or deadlift.[quote]
Again..Lisa you are awesome finding great info. I had seen that article before but didn't give it a really close read till now.
Funny you should mention that. With one major exception, the vast majority of my back problems related to O-lifts and DLs came prior to, oh, two years ago when I really began focusing on chin-ups. I didn't put the two together until Lisa referenced that article. Epiphany of the day
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Jemmie, I too have had lower back issues from time to time with the DL. In the early part of the year, you may recall I was out for a while. From listening to, and speaking with, Bill at the summit, I came to the conclusion that my problems were centred in my weak glutes/hams which translated into various problems with my hips and lower back. Since focussing on strengthening my glutes and hammies and using MM, I have not had any lower back issues. I hear the other much smarter people talking about hips and giving you good suggestions, and I just wanted to throw in my personal anecdote for what it's worth. What may be showing up as a lower back issue could be the manifestation of another trouble spot for you.
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...glutes/hams which translated into various problems with my hips and lower back.
Thanks Rob - I suspect the same here at least in part. Tight hip flexors and weak hammies. I ended up with IT Band issues while doing marathon training and had to give that up..ITB probs can also stem from the same issues.
I'll be looking into MM and PT sessions after tax season. I have to spend all those returned tax dollars somewhere!
Funny you should mention that. With one major exception, the vast majority of my back problems related to O-lifts and DLs came prior to, oh, two years ago when I really began focusing on chin-ups. I didn't put the two together until Lisa referenced that article. Epiphany of the day
I'm not reviving this thread..but just wrapping it up with a little summary I put together for myself. I need a plan of attack as I move forward back into my training. Here are the suggestions I found in this thread to help me dig my way out of DL HELL.
Front planks 3 x 60 seconds
Side planks 3 x 30-45 seconds.
T-push-ups
Elbow touches
Renegade rows
Wood choppers
Take up some kind of martial arts
A little preamble to the next two bullets below: Ian and Lisa were not in full agreement (which is unusual) on how to approach my issues. Ian’s suggestions are under the first bullet and Lisa’s under the next…I’m leaning toward Lisa’s suggestions this time since I already suspect weak\inactive glutes being a problem for me. But thanks to all for the input!
Work on single leg dominant movements: Split Squats, Bulgarian Split Squats, Step-ups & Bird-Dogs
Work on Glute activation\glute strength: single-leg back extensions, single-leg RDLs, King deads with Hip focused step-ups (high step, drive upward from the forward heel) & Bird-Dogs (excellent warm-up glute activation movement along with glute bridging)
See a chiropractor or medical professional for evaluation/help
Work on those lats for future DL’s – chins and more chins (if I ever get back to doing DL’s)
And finally - I'll be buying MM and looking for some PT sessions after tax season. Brace yourself JP…it may be March or after though..J
I'm still trying to put together my plan. Doing this summary was just my way of pulling together all the wonderful advice everyone shared. Now..I need a plan. I suck at writing my own workouts. I have no confidence in my own stuff so I will be asking for a critique here later.
Whatever I do it will include some of the above and will NOT include DL's
:p 
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