Do I up the weight or not????

[djhaycock]

Today is the start of my second week of 5x5 workouts, which I happen to be loving.

Here is the dilemma presented to me.

Today on Front Squats I did 195 x5, x5, x5, x5, x4.

The protocol in the program says to up the weight after hitting 5 reps on all 5 sets. I think that this is a bit of a technicality right now. My gut tells me to up the weight to 215, and so does my signature line.

Am I shooting myself in the foot by upping the weight or is that the best thing to do, push myself a bit harder?

[Lisa~]

If I was watching you front squat, I'd make this decision based on what I saw with your technique in that last set of 4 reps. If it was excellent and you wanted to go up next time, then fine. We'd give it a go. If it was sloppy and you barely got those 4 (and maybe that was the case since you were shooting for 5?) then I would want to see the 195 for 5x5, or maybe I'd start you with 195 and see if we could go up from there next time. You don't have to jump all the way to 215 either. I make these decisions based on what I see and what feels right for an individual client.

All that to say that we can't answer this question, only you can. :p

[CC dad]

If I just wanted to do more weight I would up the weight for sets 3&4 then lower it for set 5 if I ran out of steam.

[djhaycock]

Originally Posted by Lisa~

If I was watching you front squat, I'd make this decision based on what I saw with your technique in that last set of 4 reps. If it was excellent and you wanted to go up next time, then fine. We'd give it a go. If it was sloppy and you barely got those 4 (and maybe that was the case since you were shooting for 5?) then I would want to see the 195 for 5x5, or maybe I'd start you with 195 and see if we could go up from there next time. You don't have to jump all the way to 215 either. I make these decisions based on what I see and what feels right for an individual client.

All that to say that we can't answer this question, only you can. :p

Lisa,

Reps 1-3 were fine, rep 4 was so so and on the fifth, i went down and got about half way and got stuck so I just dropped the weight on the safety bars.

Made a fantastic crashing noise BTW!

But that's how the reps progressed. 1-3 actually felt a lot better than the reps I did in the first few sets.

[ParanoidAndroid]

I would up the weight on set 1 and see how that feels.

20 lbs is a pretty big increase though. Why don't you try 205 first?

[djhaycock]

I'm going to 215 because the program recommends 10% increases.

I've done regular back squats close to 300 in the past so I'm not terribly worried about the added stress at 215. I actually mentally fought with myself about that as well though.

[CC dad]

If you are going to follow the program that closely then I would get the 5/5 before I up the weight like it says to.

[Marykaa]

Originally Posted by CC dad

If you are going to follow the program that closely then I would get the 5/5 before I up the weight like it says to.

I like to up the weights on a few sets at first.. but would go up to 205.. so I agree with CCdad..

maybe the reason they want you to make it 5 sets.. is because after that you'll be going up 10%..

there are probably many ways to get to 215 5x5.. but if you only half follow the program, you won't know if the program was good.

[dos]

Originally Posted by djhaycock

Today is the start of my second week of 5x5 workouts, which I happen to be loving.

Here is the dilemma presented to me.

Today on Front Squats I did 195 x5, x5, x5, x5, x4.

The protocol in the program says to up the weight after hitting 5 reps on all 5 sets. I think that this is a bit of a technicality right now. My gut tells me to up the weight to 215, and so does my signature line.

Am I shooting myself in the foot by upping the weight or is that the best thing to do, push myself a bit harder?

If you did do 195 x 5 for sets 1,2,3, and 4, most likely sets 1,2 and maybe even 3 weren't all that hard. Go out harder (heavier) and go from there. There is nothing wrong with dropping the weight (less load) if you need to.

I'm going to 215 because the program recommends 10% increases.

here is a fundamental problem to begin with. How on earth can you prescribe a 10% increase without knowing what the trainee is lifting (load)? 10% for you is about 20lbs. but for a 400lb.s squatter it's 40! needless to say that this is a bit ridiculous when talking about one workout to the next.

[djhaycock]

A little additional info.

The program was written by Mike Mejia.

I respect his work very much as I have always made incredible strides using his programs.

I can see where you are coming from dos, so don't take my reply as a flame.

[Alcoholiday]

either keep the weight the same, or do a small increase 5-10lbs. a 20lb increase without getting the last rep will most likely mean that you will not get all the reps the next week. And then what? keep upping it another 10%? Small increases.

[djhaycock]

Originally Posted by Alcoholiday

either keep the weight the same, or do a small increase 5-10lbs. a 20lb increase without getting the last rep will most likely mean that you will not get all the reps the next week. And then what? keep upping it another 10%? Small increases.

If next week I do something like this:

215 x5, x5, x4, x3, x2

I would keep the weight at 215 for the next week and grind it out until I hit 215 5x5 or 4x5, 1x4 like this week. You only up the weight when you complete all reps on all sets. That being said, I am asking this question because I personally feel and think that keeping the weight at 195 next week due to the last rep on the last set today, would not challenge my muscles enough to grow.

Example to this, last week I did Decline Barbell Presses as follows:

185 x5, x5, x4, x4, x3 so this week I kept it at 185 and nailed 5x5 on every set.

Next week I'm going after 205 there.

I feel that if I bump it up, it'll help me get stonger and tax the system a bit more.

Sorry about how crazy this sounds.

[dos]

I have always had a fundamental problem with doing the same load for 5 x 5...especially if you complete all of the reps. if you can complete 5 reps with this load on your 5th set then how difficult were the first 4 sets? If your goal is to accomplish the completion of 5 x 5 with a certain weight then so be it. If your goal is to get as strong as possible (which I will assume is the goal since we are talking 5s here) then you are better off completing the toughest 25 reps of your life instead of the toughest 6-7 reps of your life.

BTW, I hear ya with Mejia's programs....he's a sound trainer but then again, it's hard to find a program that you won't find something to debate on.

[djhaycock]

dos

Great advice. This is my first time doing front squats so I think next week the reps will be tougher.

The decline bench reps were brutal both weeks. First two sets were a bit of a challenge on the fifth, but as I progressed there were a few moments I thought I might lose it but pushed through.

I think after reading what everyone has written and the final post there by dos, I'm gonna up it to the 215 and really challenge myself. I'll report back next week as to how I progressed through the sets.

Thank you everyone for the advice.

[shugga]

Originally Posted by dos

I have always had a fundamental problem with doing the same load for 5 x 5...especially if you complete all of the reps. if you can complete 5 reps with this load on your 5th set then how difficult were the first 4 sets? If your goal is to accomplish the completion of 5 x 5 with a certain weight then so be it. If your goal is to get as strong as possible (which I will assume is the goal since we are talking 5s here) then you are better off completing the toughest 25 reps of your life instead of the toughest 6-7 reps of your life.

BTW, I hear ya with Mejia's programs....he's a sound trainer but then again, it's hard to find a program that you won't find something to debate on.

dos,
Do you recommend this type of philosophy for both strength and hypertrophy programs? Is this considerred something for more advanced athletes or is it ok for beginners too? Do you recommend this for every workout or should it be moderated?
Let's say that you can complete 5X5 with 150 lbs. But you decide to take the new approach and can complete reps of 170, 160, 150, 135, 110. In your opinion this would be better, right?
Thanks,
David

[dos]

Originally Posted by shugga

dos,
Do you recommend this type of philosophy for both strength and hypertrophy programs? Is this considerred something for more advanced athletes or is it ok for beginners too? Do you recommend this for every workout or should it be moderated?
Let's say that you can complete 5X5 with 150 lbs. But you decide to take the new approach and can complete reps of 170, 160, 150, 135, 110. In your opinion this would be better, right?
Thanks,
David

David, yes, I recommend it for both. I don't consider this advanced in any way, in fact, if I was training my mom, I would hope that her sets of 10 would be very difficult as well. I think your load examples are kind of extreme as I think if you can get 170 x 5 for the first set, I would assume that you would still be doing more than 110 in your 5th set (maybe 140 or so?) but YES, I think this would be best for ANYONE. Your mucles don't know how much load is on the bar...they only know that it's hard to push this load 5 times, therefore, it's irrelevant how much is actually on the bar. The pet peeve I have is with programs that throw the most basic training principle out the window (overload). We MUST overload to progress, period. All the internet gimmicks and miracle programs in the world aside.....

[Lost Dog]

Dos,

Thanks for that. That question comes up a lot.

What about when you have a program that shows a parameter of 3x8-10 or 4x6-8, for instance?

Obviously, it's a bit of semantics, here. The 5x5, as many would do it, turns into a 5x3-5.

In general, would you say lowering the weight, as the sets increase, is the better way? Are there situations where following the rep range method, instead, is actually better?

[Newlife]

Originally Posted by dos

We MUST overload to progress, period. All the internet gimmicks and miracle programs in the world aside.....

Amen to that. That's going in my Sig line, if you don't mind.

[dos]

Originally Posted by Lost Dog

Dos,

Thanks for that. That question comes up a lot.

What about when you have a program that shows a parameter of 3x8-10 or 4x6-8, for instance?

Obviously, it's a bit of semantics, here. The 5x5, as many would do it, turns into a 5x3-5.

In general, would you say lowering the weight, as the sets increase, is the better way? Are there situations where following the rep range method, instead, is actually better?

If you have the option of 8-10 I treat that like 'no more than 10 possible yet no less than 8 completed' for each set. I think it comes down to what more important the load or the reps. If your goal is a volume of 25 hard reps then complete them at al costs (lower the weight if needed etc.). I tell my athlete this, if we are doing 5 x 5 they warm up and then get out of the gate with a solid weight that they are sure they will complete for 5. If they get to 5 and are capable of getting 6 or 7 they will. Now on the next set they will increased the load and try to get their 5. They will do this for each set. i am not big on racking a weight at 5 if you can do it for 6-7 reps....I view that as a wasted set (or just call it a warm-up set if you rack at 5..). As far as lowering the weight, think of this bench workout:

135 x 5
135 x 5
135 x 5
135 x 5
135 x 5

3,375lbs. of work

vs.

150 x 5
145 x 5
140 x 5
135 x 5
130 x 5

3,500lbs. of work PLUS the sets were harder.

Even if the volumes were the same, the 2nd workout would be superior since it would build greater work capacity.

I see this as a no-brainer.....if you are doing 5 x 5, then bust your ass and get the 25 hardest reps of your life.....Overload principle.

[Lost Dog]

Makes sense. What's your opinion on going that close to failure at each workout. You never said to go close to failure, but method 2 is obviously quite a bit closer to it, than method 1. It seems that the first way is often recommended because it causes less CNS stress.

I've seen a few recommendations to use the first method for three weeks, then something more like yours on the fourth week.

I suppose it might depend on how often one works out that muscle group, the size of the group, etc.

[eastcoastsurfer]

When in doubt, add weight. If you can't do said weight, then take some off and go again. Makes it hard to track exact progress, but missing 1 rep in a 5x5 program is not a reason to do it again w/o adding.

Personally anytime I do a program and it reads something like 4x8, I take it to mean 4x6-8. If I get 8-8-7-6, then it might be time for a slight bump in weight. If next time I get 8-6 (uh oh, probably need to drop just a bit so I can get at least 6 for the last 2) -6-6 then I feel that my strength is increasing. The hard part about this type of variance is that it means you must be actively thinking during the workout and be true to what you can and cannot do (are you missing those reps b/c you're lazy today or are you really at a limit).

[Newlife]

Dos, I have the same question of failure. What is your take on that? I also find once I fail, my recovery time goes up by 2X and my workout gets longer and lacks intensity. Any thoughts on this?

And thanks for taking the time to share with us your knowledge!~

[dos]

Originally Posted by Newlife

Dos, I have the same question of failure. What is your take on that? I also find once I fail, my recovery time goes up by 2X and my workout gets longer and lacks intensity. Any thoughts on this?

And thanks for taking the time to share with us your knowledge!~

Good question. Maybe I'm old school or better yet, maybe old school just doesn't sell anymore so that's why all the programs these days are into submaximal intensity-style training? I don't know but as I always post, I'm just a stickler for that darn overload principle. I think the question you need to ask is this, at my last rep on the set, could I have done one more? For me, I don't see the point at stoppng before the point of (progressive) overload. The term 'to failure' sounds a bit too harsh to me....it almost implies some sort of crash. With any training, I think you need to have a few variables in the mix. many things can cause fatigue, delayed recover etc. so I'm (personally) not the all that quick to blame hard training. I'm sure there are lots of trainers who would disagree with my viewpoint on this subject but I believe all of them believe in the overload principle (or at least they should...). Many just tend to try to find ways to make training not as uncomfortable which is funny to me. Training is NOT and should never be comfortable....it's training for God's sake. If you do 5 x 5 on the BP with 135lbs. then you were pretty darn comfortable for AT LEAST 3 of those sets.

[Newlife]

Great response DOS.

Thank You!

[laxcdn]

Are you doing this 5x5 program?

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/index.htm

[Lost Dog]

Thanks, dos.

[djhaycock]

Originally Posted by laxcdn

Are you doing this 5x5 program?

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/index.htm

No. This is Phase 2 of the advanced program of The Testosterone Advantage Plan.

[shugga]

dos,
I feel like I should pay you for your help
Everything you've said makes sense.
Thank you very much.
David

[Jimbo]

"We MUST overload to progress, period. All the internet gimmicks and miracle programs in the world aside....."

DOS - Question here.. In your statement above, "to progress" I assume refers to progressing in strength gains. What about a person strictly concerned abou hypertrophy? Does this same principle apply there? Or is pure training for hypertrophy a different animal all together?

[dos]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

"We MUST overload to progress, period. All the internet gimmicks and miracle programs in the world aside....."

DOS - Question here.. In your statement above, "to progress" I assume refers to progressing in strength gains. What about a person strictly concerned abou hypertrophy? Does this same principle apply there? Or is pure training for hypertrophy a different animal all together?

Absolutely the same premise. What i say for 5 x 5 goes the same for 4 x 10 (in my book). If you want to get bigger you will continually need to increase your loads while completing the prescribed # of reps.