fast concentric. confused

[karky]

On another forum i was talking about doing 10x3 with 80% of 1RM.
another member of the forum said doing that with maximum speed would be very taxing on the joints spechally the rotator cuffs, since the load is light compared to what you otherwise would lift for a 3rm. And that i should go with a slower concentric tempo:

I said i had always been adviced to lift as fast as possible.. now im wondering if i got it all wrong..

Here is what he said:

I don't know who you talked to, but when the speed of lifting increases to the point where momentum takes over (differs according to the movement pattern, but usually about 2 seconds is adequate to eliminate much of the momentum), the force production from the muscle DECREASES and shear forces on the joint and surrounding ligaments and tendons INCREASES. Numerous studies have been done on this, and any text on exercise physiology can back this up (e.g. ACSM's Resource Manual For Guidelines For Exercise Testing And Prescription, 4th ed. pgs 109-110). Essentially momentum deloads the muscle.
And about the whole fast-twitch/slow-twitch distinction, muscle fiber type recruitment does not change due to the speed of movement, it changes due to the force that must be produced. Force=Mass x Acceleration, so the greater the mass and acceleration, the greater the force production, and the more Type IIa&b fibers will be recruited. But the acceleratory factor must be regulated, for the previous reasons stated above - a greater mass will always ensure deeper inroad into the muscle (and overall muscular system), but greater acceleration will only yield that benefit if the muscle maintains tension - once a muscle is deloaded from an external influence such as momentum, the acceleratory benefit is diminished. This is why an "intermediate" velocity speed gives the best carryover to both "fast" and "slow" activities - training too slowly yields greater increases in localized muscular endurance and training too fast yields greater increases in localized muscular strength, but for the purpose of getting bigger and stronger, you want all motor units to be activated by involving both the fast and slow-twitch fibers and this is best done by doing the bare minimum to eliminate momentum but not move so slowly that less weight must be moved (e.g. with Superslow protocols). "Intermediate velocity" can be practically defined as that speed of movement which eliminates momentum but still allows for greater force production from the muscle. Don't be confused by a lot of the misinformation floating around about fast & slow movements and motor fiber recruitment - you don't have to take my word for it, just go to your local library and look up some texts on physiology and exercise science, or try some of the academic journals online (jap.physiology.org , www.asep.org/jeponline/JEPhome.php , etc.).

[bipennate]

He's 100% correct...




















...except for the fact that he's describing the impact of speed on the eccentric, not the concentric where explosive, fast movement should occur.

[Lost Dog]

Even if the guy's confused, 80% isn't all that light. It's not like you're going to shoot it to the ceiling.

80% is close to your 7RM, but you'd still lift as fast as possible if you were doing 5x5 or 4x6, right? You're just stopping at 3, when you're fresh.

[karky]

i know 80% isent all that light. this debate came when i discussed my waterbury plan with him. im moditying it to fit my knee injury.

[Chaney Weiner]

What is your goal...power? hypertrophy?

[karky]

strenght and size

[Chaney Weiner]

Originally Posted by karky

strenght and size

If strength and size is your goal, then speed really shouldn't be an issue. What I mean is that if one is training for power then speed is certainly a concern, and moreso in this case(power). If you're going for strength and size then the speed of movement is not as much an issue as it would be for power. Make sense?

[karky]

yeah.. but well. in strenght i mean being able to move heavy weight. and being able to move weight is based on speed and strenght. You're max strenght and being able to gather that strenght in the needed time to lift the weight, right?

So i guess what i really want is power and hyp.
anyways, chad recommends fast concentric for hyp too..

[dos]

We had this discussion a while back...can't remember the topic of the thread BUT to move slowly during concentric phases ON PURPOSE is silly. When moving a barbell you have to decelerate anyway (unless you are letting go of the bar at the top etc.) so all the talk of momentum, decelerating etc. is pretty much overblown.

Force=Mass x Acceleration, so the greater the mass and acceleration, the greater the force production, and the more Type IIa&b fibers will be recruited. But the acceleratory factor must be regulated, for the previous reasons stated above - a greater mass will always ensure deeper inroad into the muscle (and overall muscular system), but greater acceleration will only yield that benefit if the muscle maintains tension - once a muscle is deloaded from an external influence such as momentum, the acceleratory benefit is diminished. This is why an "intermediate" velocity speed gives the best carryover to both "fast" and "slow" activities - training too slowly yields greater increases in localized muscular endurance and training too fast yields greater increases in localized muscular strength, but for the purpose of getting bigger and stronger, you want all motor units to be activated by involving both the fast and slow-twitch fibers and this is best done by doing the bare minimum to eliminate momentum but not move so slowly that less weight must be moved (e.g. with Superslow protocols).

Here's my solution.....put more weight on the bar.

[Frank.S]

Originally Posted by Chaney Weiner

If strength and size is your goal, then speed really shouldn't be an issue. What I mean is that if one is training for power then speed is certainly a concern, and moreso in this case(power). If you're going for strength and size then the speed of movement is not as much an issue as it would be for power. Make sense?

No way.

Speed is the biggest issue when it comes to strength in many cases.

a simple way to put it is:
F=MA. Acceleration is the change of two velocities.

I realise there is more to it then that.

Try to jump really high slowly. Good luck. Look at westside style training, 2 days with main movements dedicated strictly to speed. Then on the other hand of that, if you are training for maximal weights, over time more t1 fibers is going to be recruited, which have a bigger potential for hypertrophy anyway. For most people on here, training at maximal speed is probally ideal.

I lift every weight I touch fast as possible unless its something like a curl..

[Chaney Weiner]

Originally Posted by Frank.S

No way.

Speed is the biggest issue when it comes to strength in many cases.

a simple way to put it is:
F=MA. Acceleration is the change of two velocities.

I realise there is more to it then that.

Try to jump really high slowly. Good luck. Look at westside style training, 2 days with main movements dedicated strictly to speed. Then on the other hand of that, if you are training for maximal weights, over time more t1 fibers is going to be recruited, which have a bigger potential for hypertrophy anyway. For most people on here, training at maximal speed is probally ideal.

I lift every weight I touch fast as possible unless its something like a curl..

When we're talking maximal strength, it is physiologically impossible to move a heavy object fast(90-95% of your max), unless we're talking Olymic lifting...jumping high fast is more power but of course has strength involved. When training for it you would not want to try and jump with 95% of your max versus let's say 50%...make sense?

[Frank.S]

Originally Posted by Chaney Weiner

When we're talking maximal strength, it is physiologically impossible to move a heavy object fast(90-95% of your max), unless we're talking Olymic lifting...jumping high fast is more power but of course has strength involved. When training for it you would not want to try and jump with 95% of your max versus let's say 50%...make sense?

Your saying pretty much all powerlifters are training poorly then? This is what westside method is made of, approx 50% of 1rm max as fast as possible. By training with 50% of 1rm for fast as possible you can greatly increase your speed on your 1rm. Its used to enhance your rate of force development and explosive strength. At approx 50% you actually can produce the most amount of force once you factor in speed. Do some reading on louie simmons as he is a huge advocate of this method.

I see what you are thinking but I it has its flaws. You have to train your body to go from 0 to 100 in a split second. Its going to be very difficult to do this if you are training at higher weights. By training fast your going to get your whole cns firing faster which in turn like ive said, more weight moved, more muscle fibers recruited (types 1s mostly), more potential for hypertrophy.

As for as waterburys 80% x 10sets of 3. They are supposed to be as fast as possible. Waterbury goes into http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=529331 some good reading in here too (lift fast get big program).

[Chaney Weiner]

Originally Posted by Frank.S

Your saying pretty much all powerlifters are training poorly then? This is what westside method is made of, approx 50% of 1rm max as fast as possible. By training with 50% of 1rm for fast as possible you can greatly increase your speed on your 1rm. Its used to enhance your rate of force development and explosive strength. At approx 50% you actually can produce the most amount of force once you factor in speed. Do some reading on louie simmons as he is a huge advocate of this method.

An object that is 95-100% of your max cannot be moved as fast as one that is 50% of your max. That's my point. Powerlifting is actually a misnomer. "Power" lifting or power training is more about speed and in the sport of powerlifting heavy loads are moved slowly, especially at max loads.

[Lisa~]

Originally Posted by bipennate

...except for the fact that he's describing the impact of speed on the eccentric, not the concentric where explosive, fast movement should occur.

Karky, bip has made the easiest explanation of it. You're already doing it right, ok? The concentric should still be as fast as possible.

[Frank.S]

Originally Posted by Chaney Weiner

An object that is 95-100% of your max cannot be moved as fast as one that is 50% of your max. That's my point. Powerlifting is actually a misnomer. "Power" lifting or power training is more about speed and in the sport of powerlifting heavy loads are moved slowly, especially at max loads.

Power has 2 variables based on speed.(t & v; when we use (d/t=v)). So you can train speed to increase 'power'. Now the reason submaximal force lifts works: moving a weight is just force. for example,
f=50 x 2(call 2 x) = 50
f=100 x 1(call 1 y)= 100
Increase x (of course your right x>y always) and you can expect some carryover to y. I cant think of a lifting situation where maximal force is not ideal. (I realize this physics is not exactly correct but I really dont feel like figureing out the other variables.).

It may appear that when a powerlifter does 100%1rm it is slow (actually, this is usally not even the case unless at the upper couple percent of 1rm%). But lower that load and if the lifter lifts his submaximal load with the same force as the maximal one, speed has to increase.

I think im just poor at bringing my point accross. But without speed you got shit. If we ignore old school bodybuilding tempo, lifting with maximal force most of the time is going to give maximum hypertrophy and strength.

So to the original poster, giver 100% on the concentric! Your brain is actually very smart in this and will slow down your joints before anything happens (Try fully extending your elbow and full speed right now. It will stop before it reaches its full extension).

IMO speed is one of ths most overlooked things in training. Everyone seperates speed/power/strength when they are actually all very similar in nature when you break it down.

Chaney, Ill agree with you that your maximum lifts arnt going to be as fast. But ill disagree that you can use submaximal speed loads (like your 50% jumping example) to increase speed under maximal load (and therefor increase your 1rm).

[Chaney Weiner]

Originally Posted by Frank.S

Power has 2 variables based on speed.(t & v; when we use (d/t=v)). So you can train speed to increase 'power'. Now the reason submaximal force lifts works: moving a weight is just force. for example,
f=50 x 2(call 2 x) = 50
f=100 x 1(call 1 y)= 100
Increase x (of course your right x>y always) and you can expect some carryover to y. I cant think of a lifting situation where maximal force is not ideal. (I realize this physics is not exactly correct but I really dont feel like figureing out the other variables.).

It may appear that when a powerlifter does 100%1rm it is slow (actually, this is usally not even the case unless at the upper couple percent of 1rm%). But lower that load and if the lifter lifts his submaximal load with the same force as the maximal one, speed has to increase.

I think im just poor at bringing my point accross. But without speed you got shit. If we ignore old school bodybuilding tempo, lifting with maximal force most of the time is going to give maximum hypertrophy and strength.

So to the original poster, giver 100% on the concentric! Your brain is actually very smart in this and will slow down your joints before anything happens (Try fully extending your elbow and full speed right now. It will stop before it reaches its full extension).

IMO speed is one of ths most overlooked things in training. Everyone seperates speed/power/strength when they are actually all very similar in nature when you break it down.

Chaney, Ill agree with you that your maximum lifts arnt going to be as fast. But ill disagree that you can use submaximal speed loads (like your 50% jumping example) to increase speed under maximal load (and therefor increase your 1rm).

You know something Frank, we are agreeing but since we are typing rather than discussing in person it is not coming out that way
The only thing I disagree with is using submax loads with speed to increase the speed under max load. If anything it may be a neurological thing but in theory(which is where I'm coming from here) it is not possible. Does that clear it up a bit

[Frank.S]

Originally Posted by Chaney Weiner

You know something Frank, we are agreeing but since we are typing rather than discussing in person it is not coming out that way
The only thing I disagree with is using submax loads with speed to increase the speed under max load. If anything it may be a neurological thing but in theory(which is where I'm coming from here) it is not possible. Does that clear it up a bit

Yeah I realised that as I was typing that.

I guess well have to disagree about the last part though. Me and literally thousands others have benifited from speed training westside style.

[Buk]

It hurts so bad to fully extend your elbow without decelerating it. This isn't that uncommon in volleyball if the ball hits your forearm at some very precise moemnt when you are rapidly extending you elbow. I don't know if it is the force of the ball, or that the impact changes your body's mind about decelerating or what, but it hurts. But in normal circumstances it is very hard to over accelerate. I almost always try to push the load as fast as I can.

[karky]

Doesnt it work like this?

You may have strenght to bench press 100KG
but if you are so slow that it takes maybe 1 sec to gather this strenght, you wont be able to get it up, it will fall back down on you're chest.

If you train speed you reduce the time it takes to gather you're max strenght, thus being able to MOVE higher weights..

And if you can bench press 100 kg you got the strenght and enough speed to gather the strenght in the needed time. Strenght AND speed, which is power. Thus it being called powerlifting.

Please correct me if im wrong, but this is how i have understood it..

[dos]

Originally Posted by karky

Doesnt it work like this?

You may have strenght to bench press 100KG
but if you are so slow that it takes maybe 1 sec to gather this strenght, you wont be able to get it up, it will fall back down on you're chest.

If you train speed you reduce the time it takes to gather you're max strenght, thus being able to MOVE higher weights..

And if you can bench press 100 kg you got the strenght and enough speed to gather the strenght in the needed time. Strenght AND speed, which is power. Thus it being called powerlifting.

Please correct me if im wrong, but this is how i have understood it..

As Chaney stated earlier, 'powerlifting' is a misnomer. Olympic weightlifting would be a better example of powerlifting since the power #'s pale in comparison when you look at world record powerlifting #'s vs. Oly lifting #'s. In fact, when i use power examples I often use the world record bench press and compare it to an average power clean from one of my female athletes....the power #'s are always much higher for the power clean.

[karky]

yeah i know oly lifting has more power.
But am i correct that you need both speed and strenght to be able to life a heavy weight?

[dos]

Well, I think the issue of speed is being blurred a bit in this thread. You need to generate enough force to move theheavy object in p-lifting....the time is takes you to do it is not a big factor. In o-lifting, the time factor is everything.

[Buk]

And the physics are so much more complicated then the equations make it out to seem. The equations figure an average for what you are doing, but none of the numbers are anywhere near constant throughout the lift.

[Chaney Weiner]

Originally Posted by dos

In fact, when i use power examples I often use the world record bench press and compare it to an average power clean from one of my female athletes....the power #'s are always much higher for the power clean.

I like that, great example.

[Buk]

I bet the world record bench was quite a battle though. If you can get more (average) power out of an 85% max bench is that what load you should be training at? Should max power on each lift be the goal and should load be adjusted so that average power can be achieved? Of course I mean idealy because the measurements aren't pratical in a normal training environment.

[kuri]

Buk, I think it all depends on your goal. I've read that your power output on a 85% 1RM bench will be about twice that of a 1RM lift so lifting with 85-90% loads should comprise a significant portion of training time (for a PLer). If I remember correctly Cressey has said something along these lines.

Concerning Oly lifts there is a study in the latest Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research (vol 4., pg 843) that suggests lifters with longer limbs are able to produce greater vertical velocity on the bar (ie bigger loads successfully lifted) due to joint angles (takes longer for them to pull).

[dos]

Another related thread from a while back...
Expressing Power vs. Developing Power?!

Once again, the single best illustration of the concept of rate of force development with heavy lifting vs. ballistic training

[Chaney Weiner]

Originally Posted by dos

Another related thread from a while back...
Expressing Power vs. Developing Power?!

Once again, the single best illustration of the concept of rate of force development with heavy lifting vs. ballistic training

Ahhh the Force/Velocity curve.