Front Squats

[Lisa~]

Originally Posted by ninja

But isn't that a sign of a glute weakness?

That's always what I was told, and I was thinking the same thing about the toes pointing outwards. I'm intrigued/confused now.

The knees buckling in is a sign of glute weakness.

Angling the feet out slightly just reduces the need for exceptional ankle flexibility. Bodybuilders used to be taught to point their feet straight ahead, but I'm not sure what their reasoning was. Look at just about every powerlifter and Olympic lifter you can find. Their feet are angled out. (Ryan just put up some great video of his competition lifts. Take a look at his feet.) The wider the stance, the more natural it is to angle your feet slightly outward.

Jim Wendler's Teaching the Squat article says:

1. Get into an athletic stance: For most people this is very easy. Most have played a sport and almost every sport position is the same. If you played volleyball, get into a position as if you were ready to receive a serve. If you played baseball or softball, get into the same stance as you would as a shortstop. If you played football, the stance of a middle linebacker will suffice. All of these positions are the same; butt and hips are pushed slightly back, knees are bent, lower back is arched, head is up, weight is evenly distributed on the feet, upper back is pulled together, toes are slightly pointed out and the mid-section is tight.

[Lisa~]

Originally Posted by ninja

But isn't that a sign of a glute weakness?

That's always what I was told, and I was thinking the same thing about the toes pointing outwards. I'm intrigued/confused now.

I also found this quote from Mike Robertson's 10 Tips for Flawless Squattin':

3) Comfortable Stance with Toes Out Slightly

Once you've unracked the weight and are getting set-up, you want to set your feet with a comfortable stance. Those with longer legs and shorter torsos (dolicomorphs) will probably prefer a slightly wider stance, while those with shorter legs and longer torsos (brachiomorphs) are usually more comfortable with a narrower stance. Find something that suits you and stick with it.

Toe position is something that can be argued with regards to pointing the toes straight forward or out slightly. Usually those with a closer stance prefer pointing the toes straight forward, while those with a wider stance need to toe out more. When you squat with a very wide stance and point the toes forward, it'll be very hard to go deep with the weight. Beyond that, you might have some balance issues as well. Toeing out more can usually solve 99% of the depth issues seen with wide-stance squats.

From the research I have readily available, I found this information:

Commonly lifters show greater lateral rotation of their feet as stance width increases but this variable has not been shown to influence any muscle activities (6).

That quote was taken from a review of research titled Squatting and the Implications of Technique on Muscle Function by David Woodhouse, MSc, and posted on Dr. Squat's website in the past. The link no longer works. The study that is referenced (if anybody cares, lol) is:

6. Escamilla, R. F., G. S. Fleisig, T. M. Lowry, S. W. Barrentine and J. R. Andrews. A three-dimensional biomechanical analysis of the squat during varying stance widths. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 33: 984-998, 2000

[ryan122185]

Pointing the toes out slightly will prevent the destruction of your knees when moving up to heavy weights! How much is comfort issue just experiment. you can check out my videos www.putfile.com/ryan122185 the front squat one. i auctually squat somewhat narrow, my coach has been working to widen my stance a little. And look at my rack position in the videos thats how it a FS should be racked.

[OldGuy]

Glad you posted that pic GQ and the description. Squating is my worst exercise although since switching to front squats it's getting better. One thing that has helped, like you said, is concentrating on when I am lowering. I do hold my position better when I do that. Thanks.

Good videos, Ryan. Good to see the whole thing when it's done right. Thanks.

[ninja]

Originally Posted by Lisa~

I also found this quote from Mike Robertson's 10 Tips for Flawless Squattin':


From the research I have readily available, I found this information:

That quote was taken from a review of research titled Squatting and the Implications of Technique on Muscle Function by David Woodhouse, MSc, and posted on Dr. Squat's website in the past. The link no longer works. The study that is referenced (if anybody cares, lol) is:

Awesome. You are amazing. Thank you.

[RacerBill]

Thanks for all the info, Lisa, because I have the same question as Nick. Bill Hartman advised us (and so does Gray Cook) to test squat ability and flexibility by keeping the toes straight ahead. The corrective exercises like plate squats are also supposed to have the toes straight ahead. If I had Cook's book I'd quote his rationale for it... sorry, it's back at the library.

Bill, are you reading this? Have I misunderstood something here?

Ryan -- nice video.

[Lisa~]

Originally Posted by RacerBill

Thanks for all the info, Lisa, because I have the same question as Nick. Bill Hartman advised us (and so does Gray Cook) to test squat ability and flexibility by keeping the toes straight ahead. The corrective exercises like plate squats are also supposed to have the toes straight ahead. If I had Cook's book I'd quote his rationale for it... sorry, it's back at the library.

Bill, are you reading this? Have I misunderstood something here?

Ryan -- nice video.

Huh. That's really interesting. I hope Bill chimes in; I'm sure I'll learn something too!

[Canadian_Bacon]

If you dont have it I would really reccomend getting the book "Starting Strength". Probably the most easy to read and indepth teaching of how to do the big lifts properly I have ever seen. No BS and straight to the point.

The book covers: The Deadlift, Squat, Power Clean, Benchpress, and Millitary Press

PS. Rippitoe makes the same reccomendation as MR in Starting Strength. The toes should be angled slightly outwards shoulder width apart for power and front squats.

[OldGuy]

Bill had a good blog entry here about squat diagnosis.

[GqArtguy]

Originally Posted by Cynic

Yeah, real impressive Gq. What is that? 370?

365

As far as my toes, Lisa nailed it. I can squat with my feet perfectly forward, but Im more comfortable with having them turned out, it lets me open my hips easier so I can lower my upper body in between my legs.

Haha my glutes are not weak thank god, if I had to get them bigger Id need one of those diesel back up sirens.

[Chris Correia]

Wow, a lot's happened at this party since I was last here. Any of the points I was going to make have already been made. But, just to share some . . . (Great info, btw, everyone!)

I started my squatting (both front and back, but now I only do front) with a narrower stance and toes straight forward. As I've been able to increase load, I find myself starting that narrower way but, between reps two or three times in a set, sliding my feet just a tad wider, and I find my toes naturally tend to turn out a bit as I do that.

One question I've had is how to determine what is one's true neutral (in terms of width) or hip-width stance based on my hip width. I've not squatted with a mirror, so i have no idea when I say narrower or wider what that relates to, or what it should relate to. In any case, I am still on the narrower side, and am able to do full butt to heels, and I think I'm still on the narrower side.

[Bill Hartman]

First Gq, awesome squat.

For diagnostic purposes, unless you've got a good "eye" for dysfunction, it's best to try to work from a standardized test position. The easiest is to point the toes straight ahead in this case. The body will then have to adjust to the restricted position at the foot all the way up the chain. You'll generally see movement away from restriction or movement toward strength.

Foot position during performance of a squat will depend on purpose, anthropometrics (segment lengths, femor/shaft angle, etc.), stance width, squat depth, you name it.

A weightlifter for instance needs to position himself to where he can get adequate depth to get under a heavy weight, decelerate it, and then lift it and maintain optimal trunk position. You'll see infinite variations of foot position and stance widths, but the goal is to get the most weight up. Same for powerlifting. These positions are somewhat naturally selected.

Training an athlete or a fitness client where weight lifted may be secondary depending on individual needs, foot position, stance width, etc. may be altered depending on the desired result.

Bill

[Chris Correia]

Originally Posted by Bill Hartman

First Gq, awesome squat.

For diagnostic purposes, unless you've got a good "eye" for dysfunction, it's best to try to work from a standardized test position. The easiest is to point the toes straight ahead in this case. The body will then have to adjust to the restricted position at the foot all the way up the chain. You'll generally see movement away from restriction or movement toward strength.
Bill

Bill: I know this is without assessment at all, but if I can squat with toes straight forward with almost the same load as I can moving my feet a tad wider and turning toes out (very) slightly, would you generally/grossly recommend that I keep the load a lighter so that I can work in that standardized test position? FYI, I do feel my body wanting to widen my stance a tad, and turn toes out a tad, but I can do the full squat motion without doing so, as long as I keep the weight a bit lighter. Obviously, I'm not considering load to be a primary concern.

[Bill Hartman]

...moving toward strength, right?

If the weight changes than technique will change.

Bill

P.S. Man did that sound like a quote from the TV show Kung Fu.

[Alcoholiday]

Originally Posted by GqArtguy

365

you're lying. those are those cheater olympic plates. It's only like 65 pounds.

[RacerBill]

Thanks much, Bill. That explains why I remember you insisting we squat with toes forward for the diagnostics. I guess I translated that as meaning one should perform weighted squats that way, too.

One more question: if you're doing plate or goblet squats as a corrective exercise, or for that matter the squat & reach, would you recommend keeping the toes straight, or is it okay there to turn them out a bit if that's more comfortable?

[Chris Correia]

Originally Posted by Bill Hartman

...moving toward strength, right?

If the weight changes than technique will change.

Bill

P.S. Man did that sound like a quote from the TV show Kung Fu.

Could I expect anything else?

The answer is in the question.