getting railed for full squats

[Stack a Blunt]

Ever since reading about the advantages of doing full squats instead of just 1/2 squats thats what I have been doing at the gym, the only thing is everyone there constantly tells me "oh they are horrible for your knees." One of the trainers even went as far as asking me to leave so he would not have a liability issue when my "knees explode." Could somone direct me to something that I would be able to show all these people so they see that full squats are legit and not damaging to your knees?

[JimmyC]

Originally Posted by http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/Squ ats.html

Full (Deep) Squat

Kreighbaum (1996) illustrate the safe position of a deep squat with the knees extending beyond the toes. Kreighbaum explains how a deep squat can be performed little chance of injury to the knee. The variables of concern:

speed of descent
size of calves and thighs
strength of the controlling muscles

The primary danger to the knee occurs when the tissues of the calf and thigh press together altering the center of rotation back to the contact area creating a dislocation effect. The danger of knee injury in this situation may be prevented if either of the following factor are present:

center of gravity of the body system is keep forward of the altered center of rotation
muscles of the thigh are strong enough to prevent the body from resting or bouncing on the calves.
Kreighbaum conclude the deep squat is of little danger to the knees unless these variables and factors are disregarded. Certainly only a limit type of athletes may have a sports specific need to perform a full squat. Olympic weightlifters commonly bounce out of a full front squat with near maximum resistances during both the Clean & Jerk and Snatch. Incidentally, the wide stance during an Olympic style squat further reduces knee torque forces.

During the lower portions of the deep squat the lower back may flex if hip flexibility is inadequate. The risk of injury is increased if the muscles of the lower back are not strong enough to support the flexed spine or the joint structures have not progressively adapted to such a stress. Flexibility exercises can be performed if hip flexibility is insufficient for deep, or full squats. See Full Squat Flexibility.

im sure you could probably find some more stuff on full squat safety if you google it too

[Lisa~]

Here are two articles that support your position:

Squats: Full or Parallel? by Clarence Bass

The Perfect Squat by James Wilson

[Lisa~]

The following excerpt from a squat discussion on the Supertraining forum might also be instructive:

Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 7:30 AM
To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Supertraining] Re: Squat Depth for Sports Training


I have been following this discussion for some time and feel some historic background may be helpful in understanding the situation.

One of the first books on biomechanics was Patterns of Human Motion by Stanley Plagenhoff and published in the early '70's. Dr. Plagenhoff has a free body diagram of squatting with a variety of hip and knee angles. His calculations found lower stress on the knee with larger angle at the foot and shin ( vertical shin position ) and more knee stress with a smaller shin to foot angle ( knees over the toes). He also found that with the knees over the toes the spine could maintain a more upright position and with the knees over the ankle a more flexed hip and spinal position was noted. The more hip flexion had the greater stress at the hip and lower back and vice versa.

A few years later Dr. Tom McLaughlin published a couple of squat biomechanics studies of elite level powerlifters in Research Quarterly. He used high speed cinematography at the '74 USA senior national powerlifting meet and found that the most efficient squatters has a most vertical shin and spinal position. The most efficient squatter was super heavy Don Rienhoudt who was the world record holder in the squat (over 900# (410 kg.) without wraps, heavy belt, and tight suits) and multi national and world champ.

With these studies in mind the recommendation became to keep your back straight to avoid shear stress on the spine and keep your knees over the ankle to avoid shear stress on the knee. However as the Fry study notes this is not achievable in many trainees.

We note that Powerlifters use the vertical shin position which generally causes greater forward lean placing stress on the posterior chain versus Olympic lifters who use the vertical spine position which causes greater forward displacement of the knee with respect to the ankle. This is responsible for the greater quad dominance in the high bar or front squatting as was demonstrated by Escamilla and others work. This also accounts for all the patello femoral type stress that Olympic lifters endure and is responsible for their use of knee bands and wraps to try to dampen forces at the patellar tendon insertion. Powerlifters on the other hand use their wraps more as performance booster rather than an injury treatment.

In a perfect world we would all squat with vertical shins and spines but most of us are not perfect and must do the best we can with what we have received from the great biomechanist in the sky.

I hope this bit of history sheds some light on the controversy.

Best wishes!

Dan Wathen, Youngstown (OH) State University, USA




Hi Dan,
I agree with most of your review of Plagenhoef and McLaughlin. In general, as the angle of the shank moves away from vertical (into dorsiflexion), the moment arm of the vertical forces increases, increasing the net torque at the knee. Similarly, as the angle of the femur moves away from vertical, the moment arm of the vertical forces increases, increasing the net torque at the hip. Interestingly, an increase in extensor torque at the knee will decrease the required extensor torque at the hip, thus for motions requiring combined hip and knee extension, there is a trade-off, where one is relatively large and the other relatively less.

I disagree, however, that the movement of the shank away from vertical is dangerous and/or leads to patellofemoral injury. The incidence of long-term knee pain in retired weightlifter's is no greater than that for the rest of the population (Granhed et al.). It seems common that when we talk about a joint, an increase in force or torque is assumed to correlate with an increased risk or danger. This is common among medical professionals, physical therapists, athletic trainers, etc. who are educated to prevent injury. Strength and conditioning coaches, on the other hand, are educated to enhance performance, thus an increased force or torque would be associated with greater strength (or the potential to develop greater strength).

Both views are correct to some extent, but an increased force or torque is only dangerous if it exceeds the compressive (bone, cartilage, menisci) or tensile (muscle, tendon, ligament) threshold of the tissues involved. Thus, we cannot assume that because the high-bar back squat, or front squat performed below parallel with the shank moving anteriorly increases the net torque at the knee, that this will lead to injury.

In comparing weightlifters to powerlifters, we have to consider more than just the exercises (high vs. low bar squat, front squats, etc.), but also the volume, load and frequency of training. Anecdotally, the most common knee complaints in weightlifters are quadriceps or patellar tendinitis, which are overuse injuries. Powerlifters tend to squat no more than 2 days per week, whereas weightlifters will squat 3-4 days a week (outside North America, up to 6 days a week), as well as perform full squat snatches and squat cleans, resulting in squatting motions performed 5-6 days per week. The volume tends to be higher, although the load is lower in weightlifters, but the combination of volume and frequency are more likely suspects for knee complaints in weightlifters than their choice of exercise.

When discussing injury risk and dangers of exercises, a simple kinematic and kinetic analysis is not sufficient to tell the whole story. Truly, to be accurate, one must also look at the biomechanics of soft tissues and their adaptations to training stress. There is no evidence that when performed properly, high bar back squats or front squats, performed below parallel, with the shank moving anterior to the toes have an inherent capacity to cause injury, particularly when volume, load and frequency are appropriate for the level of the trainee.

--
Loren Chiu
Musculoskeletal Biomechanics Research Laboratory
Department of Biokinesiology and Physical Therapy
University of Southern California
http://www.nsca-lift.org/SIGWeightlifting/

[Stack a Blunt]

Hey thanks a bunch guys, this really shut the people at my gym up. Even converted a few too!

[BjsAust]

Just ask them how they stand up after going to the toilet without blowing their knees out .

[BamaDave]

Originally Posted by BjsAust

Just ask them how they stand up after going to the toilet without blowing their knees out .

Does this mean in Australia you have to full squat to use the toilet?

[BjsAust]

I get down to at least parrallel and usually have my knees extend beyond my toes

[gobbla]

wouldn't that be a drop squat or something like that, super heavy excentric then EXPLODE!!

[chris_f]

Originally Posted by BamaDave

Does this mean in Australia you have to full squat to use the toilet?

\

the toilets are basically holes in the ground down there.

[Bubba Booey]

Originally Posted by Lisa~

Here are two articles that support your position:

Squats: Full or Parallel? by Clarence Bass

The Perfect Squat by James Wilson

Hey Lisa,

It seems to me that there are contradictory statements contained within these two articles. Whereas they do both recommend deep squats, Clarence Bass recommends that the knees end up past the toes. In contrast, James Wilson suggests that the knees not move past the toes.

I perform very deep squats, and IMO, if you sit back far enough, your knees will not extend past your toes.

[Lisa~]

Originally Posted by Bubba Booey

Hey Lisa,

It seems to me that there are contradictory statements contained within these two articles. Whereas they do both recommend deep squats, Clarence Bass recommends that the knees end up past the toes. In contrast, James Wilson suggests that the knees not move past the toes.

I perform very deep squats, and IMO, if you sit back far enough, your knees will not extend past your toes.

Very clever of you to notice the differences in the articles.

Each author has his own opinion. My opinion is that the particular physical characteristic of any individual lifter will determine exactly where his/her knees end up at the bottom of a full squat. If you squat Olympic style, sitting your hips between your ankles into a full squat, the width of your feet will make a difference in how far foward your knees go. Lots of things make a difference; overall height, limb length relative to torso length, width of stance, and particular execution of the movement. Knees over the toes is not a problem if your knees are strong and healthy.

I think the meta-message is that full depth squats are not dangerous or injurous if you're able to perform them well (and have no contraindications for using them).

[Newlife]

Originally Posted by shark

\

the toilets are basically holes in the ground down there.

lol.

That was pretty funny. On a side note, I have a co-worker in Japan that said the toilet is just that.....A hole in the floor that you pee and crap into. How nasty is that?

[Alcoholiday]

just tell the guy that that's what you're aiming to do (make your knees explode), and continue lifting. It should shut him up.