Biceps and triceps training

[igunick]

Got a question here. As a powerlifter I also do triceps isolation exercises.But now the question here is, should I also do biceps isolation exercises to avoid muscle imbalance in my arms?

[kmfisher]

I recommend curls in the squat rack.

[John Izzo]

I also recommend DB concentration curls, then preacher curls using the barbell...then moving on to the preacher curl machine.

[karky]

Originally Posted by kmfisher

I recommend curls in the squat rack.

Dude.. its called a curl rack

[Lou Schuler]

Seriously, I wouldn't recommend any biceps exercises. One exception might be for hammer curls, which I saw recommended in a PL workout some time back.

I assume you're doing some rowing exercises already, which should give your elbow flexors some work and help establish balance with your elbow extensors.

But having said that, it's hard to see why an imbalance of elbow flexion and extension would be a problem. After all, you need your elbow extensors to be freakishly strong in powerlifting, but what role do your elbow flexors play?

Maybe Eric Cressey will weigh in. I'm completely out of my depth here.

[igunick]

I usually do 'Biceps blasting EZ powerrack curls' :p they're great

seriously though, I just don't want any injuries because of the possible imbalance. Also I've heard doing curls prevents injuries in arms from heavy deadlifting. Don't know if that's bullshit or not though

[Frank.S]

Yeah, do some curls, to full lockout at the end.

Alot of people tear biceps, this could help.

Plus they stabilize the bench.

[Lou Schuler]

Yeah, do some curls, to full lockout at the end.

Alot of people tear biceps, this could help.

That makes sense. But I wonder if the curling motion does anything you wouldn't get with isometric holds of a barbell that's heavier than anything you could curl.

I mean, if someone tears a biceps on a deadlift, it's going to be a maximal weight, right? Probably at least 5 x the amount that guy could curl? So how would curling a fraction of the "danger zone" weight protect elbow flexors during a max deadlift?

I'm not challenging your expertise, which is certainly greater than mine on this subject. I'm just trying to understand the prescription.

[Waittz]

weighted chins should give your bis all they need. Ive never finished a session with weighted chins and said hrmmmm, even though i cant touch my own shoulder with the same arm after, i need to curl.

BTW, Lou, Im going to try towel curls for the first time on thurs. They seem very interesting.

[Patricia]

If you're performing any necessary assistant work for the big three, than you really don't need to concern yourself with isolation movements like bicep curls.

For example, if your deadlift is slow - speed work will help and depending on where you tank out in the pull (close to your feet, at knees, mid shin - for example), then you'll be doing the work necessary to overcome those issues.

Same thing in the bench: where is your weakpoint? And again, the squat: where is your weakpoint?

I've built my programs over the last several years around the big three. In the bench, I tank out midway before I get to lockout. In the deadlift, my weak area is just between midshin and knees. In the squat - midway up (thank god for box squats).

Face pulls, band pushups, neutral grip incline presses, bent over rows and even tricep extensions are examples of good assistant exercises for the bench. And speed work is key also. There's also chain and band work - and this stuff REALLY helped improving my bench.

I got to talk to Ryan Kennelly once - as a matter of fact, since he's a bench specialist and he was visiting a local supp retailer, I made a point in talking to him. The one thing that he told me that helped his bench was strengthening his legs. "You gotta have strong legs to have a strong bench", is what he told me. Thought I should mention that.

Speed is also a big factor in the deadlift. Granted, I've always had strong biceps - but my biceps got stronger as my pulls got bigger and I stopped doing any direct bicep work a LONG time ago.

So those are my thoughts - do what you have to do to get stronger in your big three lifts.


Edited to add: sorry for the rambling digression in this post. I've got a LOT of things on my mind today!

[Frank.S]

Originally Posted by Lou Schuler

That makes sense. But I wonder if the curling motion does anything you wouldn't get with isometric holds of a barbell that's heavier than anything you could curl.

I mean, if someone tears a biceps on a deadlift, it's going to be a maximal weight, right? Probably at least 5 x the amount that guy could curl? So how would curling a fraction of the "danger zone" weight protect elbow flexors during a max deadlift?

I'm not challenging your expertise, which is certainly greater than mine on this subject. I'm just trying to understand the prescription.

Well, this is the way I see it. Most people do curls and dont lockout at the end. Over 1000's of curls, this could cause the muscle to get used to only going to 90% the motion. I think alot of people do already experience this lack of ROM. I think submaximal weights over time could help cure it. Sometimes you see guys deadlifting with their arms 1/2 bent, and I think that bicep work could help. Hold will work too, probally even better. But, they arnt going to work your biceps which again, are important in stabalizing a big bench. And im pretty sure your being sarcastic at the end of your post.. thats ok I guess. Your the real expert here, im just a hack haha. Maybe in the end im just justifying trying to have big arms haha.

[Patricia]

Originally Posted by Frank.S

Well, this is the way I see it. Most people do curls and dont lockout at the end. Over 1000's of curls, this could cause the muscle to get used to only going to 90% the motion. I think alot of people do already experience this lack of ROM. I think submaximal weights over time could help cure it. Sometimes you see guys deadlifting with their arms 1/2 bent, and I think that bicep work could help. Hold will work too, probally even better. But, they arnt going to work your biceps which again, are important in stabalizing a big bench. And im pretty sure your being sarcastic at the end of your post.. thats ok I guess. Your the real expert here, im just a hack haha. Maybe in the end im just justifying trying to have big arms haha.

I find it a matter of never really performing deadlifts before - so many newbies attempt to pick the weight up using their arms, not realizing you need to drive with your legs/hips initially. I've seen this also in folks who are familiar with deads but haven't been performing them correctly.

Besides, the majority of people I've ever seen performing curls; especially barbell curls, always perform them incorrectly.

Deadlifts hold to become accustomed to the loads, do work; especially for grip since I think that's more of the problem that you see. But dynamic effort days works, too. And just working on the proper form of the lift itself works tremendously.

[Alcoholiday]

throw in curls occassionally... but you don't need them as often as tri work. tri work will play a bigger role.

I throw in some plate curls at the start of my bench workout, as well as banded pushdowns to get my elbows warm. besides that, i rarely do curls.

I highly doubt bicep curls prevent tears from deadlifting. If you're really that worried about it, then learn hook grip. People who tear bis have huge arms usually. Usually people who use the excuse of injury prevention have a bodybuilder living deep in their soul.

[Waittz]

"Usually people who use the excuse of injury prevention have a bodybuilder living deep in their soul."

Don't we all?....if you say no, you lie.

[Frank.S]

Originally Posted by TheSteve

"Usually people who use the excuse of injury prevention have a bodybuilder living deep in their soul."

Don't we all?....if you say no, you lie.

I do. Hes not happy with having 17 inch arms either!

[igunick]

I did some curls today, actually gotten weaker at them. I think I'm gonna keep them in my workouts for a while. once, maybe twice a week.

I don't really care about getting huge arms. Ofcourse it's nice to have them But biceps get bigger by just eating more and rows and chins, so curls aren't necessary for that.

[GqArtguy]

I do olympic lifting so all i do is snatch, CJ, squat, and pull some more. I do some push presses and stuff too, along with ab work.

Assistance work like rows and stuff is thrown in occasionally but I do isolation work because my major muscle groups are aleady tired from my pulling sessions. I do bicep and forearm work for balance in the arm because I do a lot more extension than flexion, but I also like having strong muscles even if they dont directly contribute to my lifts.

Just my thoughts.

[Lou Schuler]

GQ, in Oly lifting, wouldn't it be disadvantageous to train your elbow flexors? I mean, if your elbow flexors engage on a clean or a snatch, aren't you pretty much screwed?

I'm still a true novice on cleans, and for me, the hardest habit to break was that I'd instinctively pull with my arms, rather than my shoulder-girdle muscles.

[Lisa~]

Originally Posted by Lou Schuler

GQ, in Oly lifting, wouldn't it be disadvantageous to train your elbow flexors? I mean, if your elbow flexors engage on a clean or a snatch, aren't you pretty much screwed?

I'm still a true novice on cleans, and for me, the hardest habit to break was that I'd instinctively pull with my arms, rather than my shoulder-girdle muscles.

Lou, I know you asked Gq, but I think I can answer this one for him.

No matter how strong your biceps are, not using them on your O-lifts is a matter of technique. Working your elbow flexors wouldn't help your O-lifts, but it wouldn't hurt them either.

Gayle Hatch says, "Elbows bend, power ends." I like that and think it's memorable. If you get triple extension with no elbow bend, then you've got it down.

[dos]

Originally Posted by Alcoholiday

throw in curls occassionally... but you don't need them as often as tri work. tri work will play a bigger role.

I throw in some plate curls at the start of my bench workout, as well as banded pushdowns to get my elbows warm. besides that, i rarely do curls.

I highly doubt bicep curls prevent tears from deadlifting. If you're really that worried about it, then learn hook grip. People who tear bis have huge arms usually. Usually people who use the excuse of injury prevention have a bodybuilder living deep in their soul.

Don't know about a hook-grip having any effect on bicep strain etc.

[dos]

Originally Posted by Lisa~

Lou, I know you asked Gq, but I think I can answer this one for him.

No matter how strong your biceps are, not using them on your O-lifts is a matter of technique. Working your elbow flexors wouldn't help your O-lifts, but it wouldn't hurt them either.

Gayle Hatch says, "Elbows bend, power ends." I like that and think it's memorable. If you get triple extension with no elbow bend, then you've got it down.

True Lisa....."the power ends when the elbows bend" is a great quote. Also, the more you train the Oly lifts like jerks, snatches etc. the more you are able to inhibit biceps contracting when they shouldn't. In other words, they know how and when to relax when they need to facilitate something like the catching of a snatch. The promotion of this type of elongation is pretty significant especially when I get incoming muscle-bound kids.

[Jean-Paul]

I can't remember if it was Alwyn or Dos who said "it's okay to break the rules, as long as you know you're breaking the rules."

We all want to have arms like Tony G. With my general fitness clients who really want to build arms along with getting leaner all around, I will throw in a couple of obligatory exercises on the last workout of the week. I call it the "hollywood pump" for the weekend. It's not a core piece of my routine though.

[Frank.S]

Originally Posted by dos

Don't know about a hook-grip having any effect on bicep strain etc.

Very unlikely to tear the bicep on the hand that is griped regular. The underhand griped hand always is the one that seems to tear (on mixed grip).

[Waittz]

Dos you ready for GSP to be the new champ?(sorry for the hijack, go curls!.....)

[dos]

Originally Posted by Frank.S

Very unlikely to tear the bicep on the hand that is griped regular. The underhand griped hand always is the one that seems to tear (on mixed grip).

Hmmm.....maybe 'mixed grip' is what was meant? Hook grip is this.....

[dos]

Originally Posted by TheSteve

Dos you ready for GSP to be the new champ?(sorry for the hijack, go curls!.....)

Oh I'm READY!

[Frank.S]

Originally Posted by dos

Hmmm.....maybe 'mixed grip' is what was meant? Hook grip is this.....

I know that. But with the hook grip, both hands are gripped the same way. Very unlikely to tear something with this grip. Its the arm that is the other direction that is more likely to have a bicep tear.

Another excercise that could help would be underhand rows..

[dos]

Originally Posted by Alcoholiday

throw in curls occassionally... but you don't need them as often as tri work. tri work will play a bigger role.

I throw in some plate curls at the start of my bench workout, as well as banded pushdowns to get my elbows warm. besides that, i rarely do curls.

I highly doubt bicep curls prevent tears from deadlifting. If you're really that worried about it, then learn hook grip. People who tear bis have huge arms usually. Usually people who use the excuse of injury prevention have a bodybuilder living deep in their soul.

Going back to this post.....I believe that 'mixed grip' is what was probably meant rather than 'hook grip'. This is why I was confused at the implication that hooking ones' thumb would decrease biceps stress. Am I close or just missing something?

[dos]

OH! Nevermind....I think alcoholiday was saying that RATHER than mix grip, try a hook grip (thumb hook) so that you wouldn't have to supinate one arm (thus placing more stress)????? Am I on the right track now?

[Frank.S]

Originally Posted by dos

OH! Nevermind....I think alcoholiday was saying that RATHER than mix grip, try a hook grip (thumb hook) so that you wouldn't have to supinate one arm (thus placing more stress)????? Am I on the right track now?

Yep. Thats it.