The Dead Zone - JP Fitness Forums

karky · 09-10-2006, 05:22 AM

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do...ydra?id=459744

Interresting article i came across on another forum, and it confused me some.

Mistake #2: Pulling the shoulder blades together
Ive heard that i SHOULD pull my shoulderblades together :S

Mistake #5: Not pulling the bar back
This i have never thought of before, and he also states that many keeps the bar too close to the shins, and then you wont be able to pull BACK and lean back so you can get an advantage of your weight. Only question is, the moment i start pulling back and leaning back, wont the bar go straight into my shins, or should i do an effort to keep them away from the shins using muscle?
He also states that that its the short big lifters who wont be able to keep their shoulders behind the bar if they put the bar too close to the shins, but im tall and slim, so maybe this doesnt apply to me?

Cynic · 09-10-2006, 06:14 AM

I hear it both ways, for #2. I'd like to hear the pros on this site chime in on this one.

For #5, by the time you're pulling back, you should be standing upright, so it'll hit your thighs.

karky · 09-10-2006, 06:22 AM

yeah, but he says you should be pulling back from the start
"Proper positioning is important here. If you're standing too close to the bar it'll have to come over the knee before you can pull back, thus going forward before it goes backward. If your shoulders are in front of the bar at the start of the pull, then the bar will want to go forward, not backward. If your back isn't arched the bar will also want to drift forward."
by that i guess he means you should pull back during the entire lift

Cynic · 09-10-2006, 06:34 AM

Yes.

I got gigged on my sumo deadlift because what I was doing was a two-stage deadlift: straightening the legs, then straightening the back. It should be one fluid motion.

karky · 09-10-2006, 06:38 AM

im gonna try this out at the gym later today, hopefuly i can get that whole leaning back thing working for me, its been a while since my last DL max attempt, maybe i should give it a try..

EdChap · 09-10-2006, 08:04 AM

I *think* the argument against retracting the shoulder bladesis to minimise the distance the bar has to travel. When you're picking up 600lbs+ every inch counts.

karky · 09-10-2006, 08:14 AM

yeah, thats what i figured too Ed, i think ill retract the shoulderblades as far as i can, since it gives the upper back a good workout too.

Lisa~ · 09-10-2006, 08:45 AM

I think Ed's got the right idea here. Dave's audience is competitive powerlifters. Remember when Eric posted his deadlift video and everyone had to ask if his back was rounding? And he had, once again, to explain that it's ok to round your upper back as long as your lumbar spine remains neutral? It's a competition lift.

When I teach a new client how to deadlift, I teach them to retract their shoulder blades because it helps them maintain that essential lower back position. We are not using anything close to maximal loads. For a general fitness population, I like Ian King's description of how to teach the deadlift: Question of Power (next to last question on the page).

I would enjoy hearing from Eric, Mike, or Tony to know if they argee with this concept for their general fitness clients or their athletes from other sports.

karky · 09-10-2006, 08:54 AM

Lisa, how about this leaning back and keeping the shoulders behind the bar? would this also be a way of "cheating" in a comp, and something you shouldent do if you want to get the best workout from the deads?
because the leaning back thing made me think, because i havent really been doing that on my deads previously its logic that it would make the lift more easy if you let your bodyweight pull it with you, anyways, im off to the gym in like 20 mins, so ill give it a try.

Lisa~ · 09-10-2006, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by karky

Lisa, how about this leaning back and keeping the shoulders behind the bar? would this also be a way of "cheating" in a comp, and something you shouldent do if you want to get the best workout from the deads?
because the leaning back thing made me think, because i havent really been doing that on my deads previously its logic that it would make the lift more easy if you let your bodyweight pull it with you, anyways, im off to the gym in like 20 mins, so ill give it a try.

I don't disagree with anything Dave says in his #5 or #6 (but read #6 too!). You do want to pull back and leverage the weight. I personally set up with the bar right at my shin, maybe there's an inch of space or so. When I pull, the bar usually rubs against my shin the whole way up, especially when it's heavy.

Kevin T. · 09-10-2006, 09:16 AM

My take:

Leaning back and keeping the shoulders behind the bar aren't ways of "cheating" in a comp. Yes, it does make it easier, because its better form. If your shoulders are in front of the bar, you tend to drift forward and then have to "save" the lift by exerting extra energy to stop from drifting forward. With the shoulders behind the bar, you prevent this from happening. Leaning back helps do the same thing. When you're deadlifting a couple hundred pounds, you're not going to fall backwards when you lean back. But if you drift forward, it's pretty easy to lose the lift. Leaning back and keeping the shoulders behind the bar helps minimize the ROM and makes the lift "easier." Just because it'll take more energy to have to stop the bar from going forward before you lockout, doesn't mean you're getting the best workout from the deads. If you use solid form, as outlined in the article, you'll be able to pull more weight, which IS the goal, isn't it?

Theres my 2 cents my 10 cents is free

bigDman · 09-10-2006, 09:28 AM

I think the reason somepeople say to keep the shoulderblades togther is because it is hard to round your upper back and keep your lowerback flat. It takes some practice to do right

Lisa~ · 09-10-2006, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigDman

I think the reason somepeople say to keep the shoulderblades togther is because it is hard to round your upper back and keep your lowerback flat. It takes some practice to do right

Totally agreed. Teaching good low back position initially is my biggest concern with a new lifter. Then, if they go on in later years to become a big deadlifter, they can learn to let their upper back round forward for maximal loads. Do you agree with that?

Lost Dog · 09-10-2006, 09:49 AM

When I pull back, I don't feel like it's actually going back. I think, based on the angle of the back/shoulders, that you still end up pulling upward. But, it's a reminder, to me, to pull rather than squat the weight up.

Along the lines of what Cynic said, remembering that it's a pull keeps me doing the dl in one continuous motion, rather than in steps.

Frank.S · 09-10-2006, 06:47 PM

I have crappy deadlift form. Im working on it though.

I just let my arms hang down. They are link hinges.

I have a huge DL ROM (short arms) and my dead comes up past my crotch. Another way ive found to limit the range of motion is to hold the bar in the tips of your fingers. Mind you, if you have grip problems this is probally not the best method.