Form Critique: Front Squats - JP Fitness Forums

Cynic · 07-09-2006, 12:40 AM

I'm still trying to improve my form, activating hips at about the same time as the knees. I'm not sure if I'm getting it right yet. Can I get some pointers?

Front Squats

EdChap · 07-09-2006, 02:30 AM

They look pretty good to me, a couple of things I noticed;

As you descend you tilt forwards slightly which means that as you come back up your back does a mini good morning. This takes some of the focus off of your quads and puts it onto your lower back. If you lean too far forward you may lose the bar.

Your elbows may be too low which is why you might feel like you are 'losing' the bar forward. Instead of a parallel platform for the bar to rest on your arms are slightly declined. The higher you can get your elbows the more stable the weight will be.

Irishdazza · 07-09-2006, 03:51 AM

What he says...

Cynic · 07-09-2006, 03:57 AM

Yeah, I'm trying to get that sitting back form that I think Bip was eluding to the last time. The problem is balance. It always has been for me.

Irishdazza · 07-09-2006, 04:01 AM

Just concentrate on bending your knees.

I like think of draging my ass straight down while holding everything else high - seems to help.

Tony Gentilcore · 07-09-2006, 05:06 AM

Something tells me your wrist flexibility is off. Ever try a "bodybuilder" grip?

Either way, you're definitely not keeping your chest high and as such, you're dipping your elbows.

When you come up out of the hole, make it a point to fire through your heels and then really pop those hips through and squeeze your glutes.

Cynic · 07-09-2006, 06:05 AM

I've tried it, but I really, really hated it. It just didn't feel right.

Yeah, the chest up, I think I forgot about that tip.

I've still got another two weeks on it so I'll keep on it.

ryan122185 · 07-09-2006, 06:13 AM

bar should be at your throat I can't from the movie. Elbows higher. If you get it right is should feel just as secure as a back squat. Chest up. Maybe eventually get more ROM.

EdChap · 07-09-2006, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryan122185

bar should be at your throat

The bar shouldn't be at your throat, it should be resting on the meaty part of your shoulders, there's a nice ledge for it there, I personally wouldn't want to black out due to lack of oxygen.

Iamjennmedic · 07-09-2006, 07:04 AM

Part of the feeling of instability maybe when you start your toes jump up. That might be making you feel like things aren't stable, try to keep your feet flat. Feet flat, chest up and drop down, no rocking, then push it straight up.

ryan122185 · 07-09-2006, 07:15 AM

Not on your throat real close to it.

Lisa~ · 07-09-2006, 08:28 AM

Cynic, those are really quite good overall. Ed and Tony have a good eye.

I agree that your elbows are too low and wrist flexibility is probably the culprit. I would cue you with chest up, elbows high.

As far as our upward motion, I think if your elbows stay high you'll probably correct the slight (very slight) mini-goodmorning. I think you're bouncing out of the hole too much. I'd want you to stay tight at the change of direction, therefore keeping the load in your quads instead of bouncing it out of the hip joint. Again, staying tight will correct that slight hip first movement coming out of the hole. And I don't mean you can't change directions fast. I just mean stay tight. Do you other guys see what I mean? Agree? Disagree?

And your shoes are cut out of the picture, so it's really hard to see what's happening with your feet. Next video, make sure we can see your feet, ok? That'll help us help you.

Lisa

bipennate · 07-09-2006, 08:56 AM

Not too bad: i think that there are some definite improvements from last time. If you're still having trouble with your balance, you might try a couple of "tricks" to help you along until the form feels more comfortable:

Take a wider (think almost powerlifter) stance. If you're feeling unbalanced and it's difficult to sit back with the chect out, widening your base will help a lot. Once you're comfortable squatting properly that way, you can start to bring your legs tighter (if you want to).

Allow your toes (hence, foot position) to point naturally. Like Lisa said, it was hard to tell exactly how they're lined up, but they look pretty straight to me...there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but I'm of the opinion that the foot position should be more or less natural (vs. artificially turning them inwards so that they allign parallel with one another), so if your feet naturally "duck" outwards, that should be represented in your stance (to a point...we ain't talking "plie squats" here). It will make it much easier to balance if you take a more natural position.

If you're still finding it difficult, it may also help you to squat with your heels elevated on two small plates (2.5 or 5 lb. plates) so that you have a "target" to push back against as you descend. This might also help to get the feel of the proper form until you no longer need the plates (a good way to "ween" yourself off of using plates is to drop the size as you progress in form: start with 5's, then 2.5 once you're comfortable, then 1.25 if you have them, then floor). Of course, the goal is to squat without the plates eventually, but until then, they can be a valuable learning tool.

Finally, you might want to point your eyes up a little higher: right now, you're looking straight ahead, which is perfectly good form of course, but if you're having trouble keeping your back from bending forwards, sometimes keeping your eyes and head a little higher (maybe another 15-30 degrees) can help a lot in maintaining a more upright position.

Ok, you've got some homework, Cynic...good luck!

Lisa~ · 07-09-2006, 09:13 AM

bip, I commend you for addressing Cynic's own comment that balance was his issue. And I agree that a slightly wider stance and upward focal point for his eyes might both assist in securing his balance.

However, I respectfully disagree with elevating his heels. He already tends to tip forward just a bit and elevating his heels will just exacerbate this tendency.

Elevating the heels is sometimes used to teach squat depth when ankle stiffness is a problem. I don't really like this solution, but depth is usually when this technique is used. Cynic is already getting sufficient depth, so I would not recommend heel elevation. On the contrary, I am waiting for him to purchase flat soled shoes with a lower heel, stiffer sole and wider base of support.

Lisa

John Izzo · 07-09-2006, 09:14 AM

Cynic,
All great commments by everyone. I watched your video 2-3 times and noticed a couple things that were mentioned but also:

1.) I notice you drop down fast and then bounce at the bottom to come up. Eccentrically, your hamstrings are weak because they are not decellerating the descent. I suggest you work on those hammys and slowly descend.
2.) Whats up with the feet? Why can't they stay put? I notice you lift your feet up throughout the motion ALOT. This tells me you have serious ankle mobility and calf flexibility issues that should get addressed. Work on the foam roller and stretch the calves.
3.) Your not keeping the abs tight. I can see the "dip" which is usually charactierized by weak core and pelvic floor muscles. The chest does dip and you can see it is apparnet through weakness in the thorasic cavity (evidenced by the 4th set your elbows start to drop). Not too much of a big deal because you have better elbow flexibility than most. But you have to work on those scap retracters & stabiliizers, as well as serratus anterior and lats.
4.) You are going low, but can tell the weight maybe a little too heavy. Drop a couple of pounds on the bar and control the descent.

Thansk for sharing the clip.

bipennate · 07-09-2006, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa~

However, I respectfully disagree with elevating his heels. He already tends to tip forward just a bit and elevating his heels will just exacerbate this tendency.

Elevating the heels is sometimes used to teach squat depth when ankle stiffness is a problem. I don't really like this solution, but depth is usually when this technique is used. Cynic is already getting sufficient depth, so I would not recommend heel elevation. On the contrary, I am waiting for him to purchase flat soled shoes with a lower heel, stiffer sole and wider base of support.

Lisa

As John noted above, Cynic does have ankle issues, which is what you also saw when you noted that his toes "jump" up as he squats. What is happening is that he is overcompensating his backwards push during the decent, causing his toes to jump up and ultimately decreasing his contact area...when this happens, the natural tendency is to lean the upper body forwards to offset the change in COG so that he doesn't fall backwards. You can actually see this happen in the video: as his toes pop up, he quickly dips forwards to maintain his balance, rolls forwards on the balls of his feet, and his knees shift forwards to offset the forward momentum of his body. By elevating the heels, it will force a greater contact area, giving him a better balance, and directing his squat in a more linear and upright path. He's ultimately dipping forwards because he's reacting to an imbalance backwards, a mistake that can be corrected momentarily by reinforcing the back of his feet.

I agree, elevated heels are a learning tool in general...but that's why I recommended it

I don't think that he should use the technique for any extended period of time either.

Lisa~ · 07-09-2006, 09:46 AM

I think we agree on what we see can be improved with his front squat. I think we just disagree about how to correct it. And that's ok. He wanted different opinions. He can decide what he wants to try to make further improvements. It's all good.

Lisa

bipennate · 07-09-2006, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa~

I think we agree on what we see can be improved with his front squat. I think we just disagree about how to correct it. And that's ok. He wanted different opinions. He can decide what he wants to try to make further improvements. It's all good.

Lisa