What Makes Fat Loss Occur - Diet/Workout Questions
I've always been told... Diet makes you lose fat, not training, but with the plethora of workouts claiming to be "fat loss" workouts, I always wondered what people who did this for a living and people who were successful did to actually shed body fat.
Granted, it's probably a combination of both diet and workout, but really is there such a thing as a fat loss workout?
I don't think so, as I've found, if you are eating whole foods, enough protein, enough fruits and veggies and less processes carbs and/or sugars you will lose body fat, doing any type of workout with weights and some HIIT will aid you, however, there is no magic bullet fat loss workout, just something is better than nothing.
How much you eat will determine whether or not you lose total body weight, fat and lean mass. How you exercise will influence where that loss comes from: fat or lean mass.
There is a lot of debate in the fitness industry about what type of workout is best coupled with a diet. I think there are individual differences and people often have to find what combination works best for them.
Lisa
Last edited by Lisa~ : 06-14-2008 at 09:10 AM.
Reason: correct typo
To lose weight you have to go into a caloric deficit. How you get into that deficit is where the debate comes from.
Just dieting usually isn't the best way b/c your body will tend to use muscle first if it has no reason to keep it around. This means as you lose weight your BMR will also drop which will cause you to have to diet more and a pretty vicious cycle starts where the scale may say good things, but the mirror doesn't.
Just doing weight training while doing some dieting will force your body to keep the muscle on and target the fat areas to use for the extra energy and help to keep up your BMR. Weight training also burns a few extra calories which can help in getting into a caloric deficit.
When it comes to additional things to do, HIIT is often found as the most *efficient* way timewise to get your body to use calories (and continue to use them later). Of course if you have all day, you don't have to do HIIT and can do any extra activity you wish. Most people don't have that time luxury so HIIT it is.
Personally, I spend less time exercising now than I ever have before and I'm bigger, leaner, and stronger than ever before. It's amazing what some knowledge can do.
__________________
"Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." -- T.S. Eliot
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit."-- Aristotle
How much you eat will determine whether or not you loose total body weight, fat and lean mass. How you exercise will influence where that loss comes from: fat or lean mass.
There is a lot of debate in the fitness industry about what type of workout is best coupled with a diet. I think there are individual differences and people often have to find what combination works best for them.
Lisa
This has to be one of the most succinct summaries of the topic at hand I have ever seen. Bravo Lisa!
I would add one additional sentence: "What you eat also determines where the loss comes from, fat or lean mass."
This has to be one of the most succinct summaries of the topic at hand I have ever seen. Bravo Lisa!
I would add one additional sentence: "What you eat also determines where the loss comes from, fat or lean mass."
Oh agreed. I think that I should have said that! Clean food choices make a lot of difference, but without exercise you're still probably going to loose both fat and lean mass.
I've always been confused by the theory that if you exercise too hard and/or eat too little, your body somehow knows that it will be facing a calorie deficit and will hang onto fat.
This is popular on some body building boards when the subject is cardio. I always wonder if it is true - or if it is an excuse to skip cardio? I've even read some people's opinions that cardio can make you fat...
Someone else may be able to answer this question better than I can, but I'll give it a try.
If your daily caloric deficit exceed what your fat stores can cover, then your body has to mobilize lean body mass to cover the difference. Once lean body mass is lost, metabolism slows. The lower total bodyweight, coupled with the slower metabolism leads to a lower maintenance level of calories needed to sustain this body, which now probably has body fat at a higher percentage than before the diet began. Continuing on this same diet at the same calories can now possibly lead to fat gain, since this same calorie level may now be above maintenance.
I've always been confused by the theory that if you exercise too hard and/or eat too little, your body somehow knows that it will be facing a calorie deficit and will hang onto fat.
This is popular on some body building boards when the subject is cardio. I always wonder if it is true - or if it is an excuse to skip cardio? I've even read some people's opinions that cardio can make you fat...
What do you think?
That's when you're calorie deficit is so great, the body think's it's starving and slows it's metabolism. It depends on how active you are. The rules of thumb I've always heard were:
1. Don't cut yourself more then 1000cals off your AMR.
2. Don't go under 2000 cals intake, unless your AMR is already under, at or near 2000 cals, then don't cut by more than 500.
NOTE: I just heard that a slow metabolism will help a person live longer.
I was watching "The Most Extreme..." on Animal Planet. It's a top 10 list of some topic in the animal world, in this case it was on extreme dieters in the animal world.
As they tell about each one, they link it back to some aspect of humans, in this case #2 was a critter that can go 6mos or more without eating, so it's metabolism is slow for it's size.
They said research showed that people who have slower metabolisms live longer. I can't cite, because as is typical of TV, they don't cite with doc #, researcher name, or anything.
Now, I didn't say it's true (I'm not a biochemistry researcher), but what I heard.
However, I think it's safe to say that excessive peripheral fat stores will trump the slow metabolism.
There have been some animal studies, rats specifically, that showed that calorie restriction increased longevity, but it is not conclusive that the same benefits will be found in humans. And nothing I've read talks specifically about slowed metabolism being the defining factor.
Newer animal studies are implying that it's lower fat mass that increases longevity, not specifically calorie restriction. It's still a topic of discussion on the Supertraining forum and there are certainly no firm conclusions that can be applied to humans.
However, they're doing research into a lot of different aspects to help astronauts survive a round trip to Mars. One includes the hibernation gene which all mammals have.
Who knows what new nutrition information we'll learn from NASA.
This makes sense. Your body is just doing what it must to survive...it operates on an assumption of limited resources.
I'll echo the previous, solid advice from Lisa and Cynic. The most effective methods of weight loss vary from person to person. But - in all cases - weight loss requires a calorie deficit. The trick is to find the right level of caloric intake for you. Go too far into deficit and your metabolism will begin to slowdown in order to preserve your emergency stores (re: fat).
If you want to lose bodyfat and don't want to lose too much muscle mass, you should commit yourself to a lifestyle that includes daily exercise as a way to achieve a caloric deficit. This will encourage your body to metabolize your fat stores.
The most successful fat loss stories I know of are two grown men - both friends of mine - in two different states of bodyfat. One was obese...overweight by a good 80 pounds. Another was just combatting a little fat gain...perhaps 15 pounds.
Both acheived (and eventually exceeded) their fitness goals. But they had some things in common during their fat loss phases: they ate clean, they limited (or eliminated) their beer drinking, and they did cardio (mostly jogging) every day.
I took this much away from both of their experiences: if you can work yourself up to where you can jog two miles a day, have the discipline to moderate your nutrition and do it religiously...it's almost impossible for you to stay fat.
__________________
"Why do I keep going to the gym? Because I have cultivated this inner psychotic voice that laughs at me and the end of each and every set. It tells me I'm weak. It tells me I'm soft. It tells me I've been weak and soft all my life. And after it berates me for a good 60 seconds, I tell the voice to get bent because I'm busy getting stronger." - Me, in response to a co-worker asking me why I keep dragging myself to the gym
That's when you're calorie deficit is so great, the body think's it's starving and slows it's metabolism. It depends on how active you are. The rules of thumb I've always heard were:
1. Don't cut yourself more then 1000cals off your AMR.
2. Don't go under 2000 cals intake, unless your AMR is already under, at or near 2000 cals, then don't cut by more than 500.
NOTE: I just heard that a slow metabolism will help a person live longer.
Just want to add one point...
your body dosen't think at all. It is starving if you drop your calories that low. Dosen't matter if it's self inflicted or because there is no food in your environment, the end result is the same. You are starving and the body will conserve fat and burn muscle.
__________________ 2009: No races, No times. Slow year. So, now you're 96 cals short. You're now in starvation mode. Doomed. - LostDog
Blog entry: November 1, 2009, Pancakes LiveSTRONG daily plate log
The catch, of course, is determining at what point a body hits the 'starvattion mode'. Franky, the common estimators can be ridiculously off-base. A person's metabolic state has to do with a lot of different factors and is highly individual.
I'll use myself as an example. Using multiple measurement mechanisms, I determined my LBM, and used that to factor my BMR. Now, that calculated number, sans exercise, never comes to below 2100 kcals/day for me and as is as high as 2700/day. But, surprisingly, when I tested my actual RMR (or as close to 'actual' as you can get with an oxygen usage test - which varies slightly from BMR) it came out as 1400 kcals. Now, no predictor in the world is going to put me at that level (this is a level without daily activity taken into account). Add in my daily activity and 350 kcals on a heavy lifting day and my daily maintenance requirement comes in somewhere south of 2000 kcals. Well, that explains what I already knew emprically from my weight loss history as far as kcals needed to lose 1 lb/week. Still, you should have heard the reactions I got, even from professionals, when I told them that I needed to be at 1,500 to 1,700 kcals a day (or increase my workout load significantly - which I do during the summer riding season when a single ride can burn 3500 kcals) for fat loss. You'd have thought I swore at them! And I never could get anyone to explain why my RMR test would not be applicable as the most accurate measure of my metabolic rate. Looking at my build and musculature, which would never be described as 'thin' it makes no sense, but there it is.
My point with this anecdote is that the magic number for maintenance, where you body will cannibalize LBM or go into starvation seems to be highly individual, especially if you fall among the outliers of the general population (as it appears I do). My other point, which I am sure will be contended, is that the average American ingests way too many kcals and exercises way too little for them to be worrying significantly about going into a starvation mode (crazy cabbage and starvation diets notwithstanding). Of course, I am willing to be educated if this is incorrect.
Kaiser, check out that article that Lisa posted by Lyle McDonald. I used his calculations and came out with 1,200 cals per day for me. Far below the 2,000 which would be (allegedly) 500 below maintenance for me. After reading that your numbers don't surprise me at all.
__________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."
Thanks Bob! I didn't check out the article prior to posting. Very interesting stuff.
I know I can lose weight (and pretty much keep on LBM if I work on it right) in the summer when I ride like crazy. Brute force fat loss with massive expenditure out without starving myself (or radically cutting carbs, which would be suicidal for my riding)... something that I know makes Craig and Lou cringe. It's not efficent or pretty, but it works for me every summer, and this summer I am keeping my upper body size so far.
Personally, I spend less time exercising now than I ever have before and I'm bigger, leaner, and stronger than ever before. It's amazing what some knowledge can do.
spot on theres so many overkill training programmes out there nowadays that are simply unnecesary
__________________
BFG
"The time for talking has passed, actions are speaking louder than words."
That's when you're calorie deficit is so great, the body think's it's starving and slows it's metabolism. It depends on how active you are. The rules of thumb I've always heard were:
1. Don't cut yourself more then 1000cals off your AMR.
2. Don't go under 2000 cals intake, unless your AMR is already under, at or near 2000 cals, then don't cut by more than 500.
NOTE: I just heard that a slow metabolism will help a person live longer.
Point 2 is not necesarily true I was on average of 3500 dropped to 2000 and calorie cycled to 1400 and metabolism didnt falter at all.
Im glad to see that subsequent posts are now starting to acknowledge that this level of calories will not put you into starvation mode and will not lead to muscle loss!! Personaly as a 6ft male and when I was on that low level down at 79kg I wouldnt have gone below 1400 as any lower and my energy levels and will power would have been impared
__________________
BFG
"The time for talking has passed, actions are speaking louder than words."
If you want to lose bodyfat and don't want to lose too much muscle mass, you should commit yourself to a lifestyle that includes daily exercise as a way to achieve a caloric deficit. This will encourage your body to metabolize your fat stores.
The most successful fat loss stories I know of are two grown men - both friends of mine - in two different states of bodyfat. One was obese...overweight by a good 80 pounds. Another was just combatting a little fat gain...perhaps 15 pounds.
Both acheived (and eventually exceeded) their fitness goals. But they had some things in common during their fat loss phases: they ate clean, they limited (or eliminated) their beer drinking, and they did cardio (mostly jogging) every day.
I took this much away from both of their experiences: if you can work yourself up to where you can jog two miles a day, have the discipline to moderate your nutrition and do it religiously...it's almost impossible for you to stay fat.
Whilst I cant disagree with your colleagues achievements and there are a thousand ways to skin a cat but cardio is the most inefficient way to lose body fat.
Firstly calculating the exact calorfic burn is way too subjective.
Secondly everyday? Its the fastest way to lose body weight maybe but retain mass no way! Your body is not being allowed chance to recover and repair.
if you are expending the same calories daily is the same as sticking at a static calorie figure the body adjusts to the level of calories it is provided with and weightloss will slow
__________________
BFG
"The time for talking has passed, actions are speaking louder than words."
Burning 3500 or there abouts will make you lose a lb, sure. But will it be a lb of muscle or fat? Most likely a mix of the two. Just something to think about when that number is thrown about.
__________________ 2009: No races, No times. Slow year. So, now you're 96 cals short. You're now in starvation mode. Doomed. - LostDog
Blog entry: November 1, 2009, Pancakes LiveSTRONG daily plate log
Whilst I cant disagree with your colleagues achievements and there are a thousand ways to skin a cat but cardio is the most inefficient way to lose body fat.
People keep telling me that and I want so badly to believe it out of respect for those members of the board that I just know are better educated than me about the subject of fat loss. But I find it awfully hard to believe that cardio is the most inefficient way to lose body fat. Maybe it's just my thick skull.
I can't help but believe that moderate, daily cardio combined with an clean, nutritious diet is a winner in the area of fat loss. The cardio could be any number of things: jogging, basketball, soccer, etc. Just some good, solid activity for at least half an hour a day...so it becomes part of your lifestyle.
Quote:
Firstly calculating the exact calorfic burn is way too subjective.
Conceded.
Quote:
Secondly everyday? Its the fastest way to lose body weight maybe but retain mass no way! Your body is not being allowed chance to recover and repair.
In hindsight, my examples are two gentlemen who weren't very educated about fat loss themselves and they weren't too concerned about the loss of a little lean mass. After my friend John lost 100 lbs of total mass and got down in the lower teens of bf%, he decided to bulk a little so he did - indeed - drop most of his cardio.
In short: You're right. My statement is broad and short-sighted.
__________________
"Why do I keep going to the gym? Because I have cultivated this inner psychotic voice that laughs at me and the end of each and every set. It tells me I'm weak. It tells me I'm soft. It tells me I've been weak and soft all my life. And after it berates me for a good 60 seconds, I tell the voice to get bent because I'm busy getting stronger." - Me, in response to a co-worker asking me why I keep dragging myself to the gym
Just remember that cardio does indeed burn calories. The arguement is that it's not as efficient as intervals, HIIT, sprinting, etc. But, there's nothing that says you can't use cardio in your quest to lose fat.
However, you can burn the same amount of cals in a shorter time using the other methods. Plus, you produce EPOC, afterburn, turbulence, metabolic disturbance, etc. that lasts far longer with the other methods.
So, at the end of the day, you've burned some cals during steady state cardio. But using intervals, hiit, etc. will have you burning cals during AND after. That should win the fat loss race.
Be that as it may, burning cals is still a key. If you don't have it in you, particularly after a grueling weight session, to do some HIIT, regular old cardio may be your thing.
When people point out that lifecyclers, slow treadmillers, and elliptical jockeys "are fat," it's often because they don't give it any real effort, just cruising along at a pace that can last forever. Also, your body adapts, quickly, to that level of effort. Jog at 4.5 mph, every day for 30 minutes, and like it or not, you're burning fewer and fewer calories, each time (despite that LED screen).
If you stick to the steady state cardio, you must move faster and/or farther each time, to keep from adapting and losing the effect your looking for.
well look at it like this then when you use the term efficient its about effort put in to achieve the fat loss not the sped of loss.
With the best will in the world once you have embarked upon a fat loss plan for a month you will be going good to lose 2lb a week. You can achieve this through diet alone, then if you just use an intense weights routine based on a HIT style or NROL (excluding the cv/hiit element) then you will stimulate muscle which aids in retention. If your diet is sufficient deficit then additional cv be it steady state or hit is not necesary and will make hardly any difference in the level of fat loss.
Now this is where some start arguing the health benefits of running. Well if the weights routine is intense with minimal rests and employs supersets you will be getting an intense CV workout anyway as well as this diet does more for your health than any other activity in isolation.
__________________
BFG
"The time for talking has passed, actions are speaking louder than words."
What Makes Fat Loss Occur - Diet/Workout Questions
Another question for the mix...
Linear Mode
