I would not do GMs for a ME lift. Do them as assitance instead. For ME lower body lifts, ite best to keep it simple(unless you are really aware of your weak points in squats/deadlifts). Something like this would me a good ME rotation...
weeks 1-3 ATF squuats
weeks 4-6 off the floor deadlifts
weeks 7-9 box squats
ATF squats are ass-to-floor squats right?
What's the difference with full squats?
Also, are off the floor deads regular deads?
Isn't the goal trying to strengthen the weak links? So doing regular deads isn't really following the principles. ofcourse I could be wrong [img]smile.gif[/img]
Off the floor deads are where you stand on either a low box ( less than 6") or on a couple of plates and are deadlifting the bar from off the floor. Doing this increasing the ROM of the lift and helps to strengthen some weak points.
I think Rip meant ATG or ass to grass, which is basically the same as ass to floor if he did mean ATF. Just go down as deep as you can, but my caution is to watch your lower back rounding if you have flexibility problems like i do. All those lifts the Rip suggested will help improve both your squat and deadlifts.
The full squats (ATF/ATG) will be a primer. My guess from what i'm visualizing the off the floor deadlifts to be is that it's work your hamstrings and posterior chain harder. and then the box squats will help your explosiveness and getting out of the bottom of your squats.
I've done a few cycles of WS4SB and i really liked it, but i've never done just WS. They look similar, as WS4SB is based on WS principles. From my understanding of WS4SB, the max effort lift is the main strength/muslce building and the accessory lifts are to help with the weak points. However, i would pick these ME lifts with any weaknesses in mind so in the end, it all works out better.
there's my 10 cents, my 2 cents is free
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So ATG or ATF is just a way of doing squats? I could be done with front squats too?
I think I'll replace the GM's with the box squat since I know I lack explosiveness.
Should I still incoporate the GM's by changing it with the SLDL or partial deadlift?
I would replace partial deadlifts with speed pulls. They can do wonders for improving your deadlift especially if you lack explosiveness. It's also a good opportunity to work on technique. I would also consider adding some sort of unilateral quad dominant work on your leg days since your only quad dominant exercise are box squats, and they are DE. I've also found doing rep work instead of DE bench to be more affective, but guess that varies from person to person.
Ass to Grass just refers to how deep you are doing whatever squat type exersise you are doing.
WS is a good program but I sort of think it is overkill for most beginner/intermediate lifters. A lot of people forget how strong the guys at WS were before they started training like that. I know a few 2nd gen ppl have been training like that since the start.
Be careful also that a lot of the device over on elitefts is for people who lift suited. Although a good chunk of it is valid for ppl who squat Raw not all of it is that applicable or optimal.
Well i wouldnt do dips for your triceps friend do either db extensions or skull crushers another good choice is close grip press!You dont need tricep pushdowns twice a week either,also on your de bench day dont do pull ups instead do another rowing movement,but pull ups are very good also however i find your strength increases more with rows.As for partial deads maybe not my friend why not try pull throws to start with they increase the lower back and hams plus i wish i had did them first time as my squatting increased alot!As for ME movements for the first few weeks just do low box squats and then assess your weak points.Another tip is that try to keep your routine as basic as possible at the start and dont over do it,all that heavy lifting takes it out of you my friend so dont try to do too much at once.I would suggest you post your updated routine soon friend and i will comment also if you choose to do what you have posted then good luck and wish you all the best,BB
PS:Your gonna be sore hahaha
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Originally posted by BRITISHBULLDOG: Well i wouldnt do dips for your triceps, friend, do either db extensions or skull crushers. Another good choice is close grip press!
You dont need tricep pushdowns twice a week either. Also on your DE bench day, dont do pull-ups, instead do another rowing movement. Pull-ups are very good, however i find your strength increases more with rows.
As for partial deads maybe not. Why not try pull-throws to start with as they increase the lower back and hams. I wish i had did them first time as my squatting increased alot!
As for ME movements for the first few weeks just do low box squats and then assess your weak points. Another tip is that try to keep your routine as basic as possible at the start and dont over do it. All that heavy lifting takes it out of you my friend, so dont try to do too much at once. I would suggest you post your updated routine soon and i will comment. Also if you choose to do what you have posted then good luck and wish you all the best,BB
PS:Your gonna be sore hahaha
I did some minor editing so I could understand BB's post.
hope these help,you seem to going on the right track anyway,good luck with westside!My new target for next year is 450lb bench press,600lb squat hope i complete!later dude
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Okay, I'll make some adjustments and I'll post the updated routine later on.
But what are pull-throws? do you mean pull-troughs? Because I can't do those (crappy cable station).
Also, thx for the articles. I had already read the first part but I forgot the other 2 parts. so thx!
those are some pretty high numbers, what are your current stats on the squat, bench and deadlift?
Can I do Rack lockouts as a triceps supplemental exercise? Or should I do some kind of tricep extension? I never had much strength increasements with triceps extensions.
Another question, how should my week look like?
Should it look like this? ME - rest - ME - rest - DE - rest - DE or can it also be ME lower - DE upper - rest - DE lower - ME upper - rest - rest ?
its best to do either barbell tricep extensions,db ext.,close grip incline bench press,jm press!these are the ones that are most used over westside so i suggest you do them!I wouldnt do rack outs my friend.Your days should be ME SQUAT-REST-ME BENCH-REST-DE SQUAT-DE BENCH this is what is also always used at westside.I know it is really confusing at the moment but when you strength increases you will see what it was all for.Also the high volume you use of your tris will make you bench more than ever also they give you dam big guns too.But for the triceps i always found that barbell tri ext for me bench day and db tri ext for de days works best,watch your lifts grow.
For example i will show you a routine i made up when i first started,i realised i was very weak in my core aswell.This is just a starter for me as i came on they got far better:
monday me squat
ME LOW BOX SQUATS-UP TO A MAX
PULL THROUGH 5X12-15
WEIGHTED CRUNCH 5X10-15
LEG RAISES 5X10-15
WED
ME BENCH PRESS - UP TO A MAX
BARBELL TRI EXT 6X10
PULL UPS 3X5
DB ROWS 3X5-8
FRONT PLATE RAISES 4X10-12
DE SQUAT FRIDAY
DE BOX SQUATS 8X2
STIFF LEG DEADS 3X3-5 HEAVY SETS
WEIGHTED CRUNCH 3X15
BARBELL SHRUGS 3X15
SUNDAY
DE BENCH-SPEED BENCHS 10X2 USING 3 DIFF GRIPS
LYING DB EXT 4X8
BARBELL ROWS 3X5
LAT PULLDOWNS 4-5X12-15
DB PRESS 3X10 -SHOULDER WEAKNESS
THERE ARE MANY ROUTINES YOU CAN MAKE BUT ITS BEST TO SUIT YOUR WEAKNESS,I KNOW MY CORE WAS WEAK AND MY SHOULDERS,LATS.SO I BROUGHT THEM UP TO SCRATCH AND INCREASED MY BENCHING ALOT.HOPE THIS HELPS,LATER BB
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ME Lower body:
- A. ME Low box squat
- B. SLDL 4x6
- C1. Cable crunch 3x10
C2. Russian twist 3x10
- D. Hyperextension 3x10
- E. low cable abduction (weak abductors) 3x15
ME Upper body:
- A. ME close-grip bench
- B. Lying EZ triceps extension 6x8
- C1. Bent-over row 3x5
C2. One-arm DB row (elbows out) 3x5
- D1. external rotation 3x12
D2. tricep pushdown 3x12
DE Lower body:
- A. DE box squat 8x2
- B. Pull-through 4x6
- C1. hanging leg raise 3x10
C2. Side bend 3x10
- D. Reverse hyperextension 3x10
- E. Low cable abduction 3x15
DE Upper body:
- A. DE bench press 8x3
- B. Incline Db press 4x6
- C1. Seated row 3x8
C2. Wide-grip pullup 3x8
- D1. Swissball DB press 3x8
D2. external rotation 3x15
I'm also gonna add grip training somewhere.
So how is this one then? I did keep the pullups, I think they are important for lat strength.
I think it's a bit too much in total though?
lose low cable abduction,external rotations,swiss ball db press.These are not need as yeat maybe when you are a few months in and your shoulders are a little more worn.Incline db press has too many sets do 2x10 for now.Your chest is getting hit too much ya see all that benching wont do you any good.Well the rest of your routine is fine,sometimes you just dont need all those exercises.I try to keep 5 movements per session and i see far better results.I have no doubt that if you carry on with this training you will reach your goals,nutrition is very important when doing westside.You can grow far bigger than you expect,train as hard as you can every session!good luck with westside,BB
Only thing that I see missing, with my limited knowledge, is that you don't have any single leg work. I'd throw in some sort of lunge into one or both of your Lower Body days. I've found that this really helps me out.
Okay BB, I'll drop those exercises. But you say I have too much sets on the incline Db press? You're probably right but what about the intensity? the periodization bible says the supplemental exercise should have a high intensity on DE day while you're suggesting 2x10. That's not really high intensity is it? How about 2x8 or 2x6?
C dorr: I don't need any more quad work since my weaknesses are my core and hamstrings. I also found that SLDL's and pull-throughs work very good for me too .
igunick i would think there is no right or wrong answer here you will get good results with 2x8.2x10 or 2x6,however now lookin back i would say that 2x6 would have been a better option as you get a good amount of weight to lift then you would with 2x10.Igunick your routine looks good now,remember to change it around slightly every 3 weeks,even the order inwhich the exercises go in!good luck
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Igunick - If you have weak abductors, what are you doing to fix them? I think thats where unilateral leg work really comes into play. If you abductors really are weak, you probably aren't very good at lunges and are pretty unstable, especially at something like a bulgarian split squat.
One of the biggest mistakes begginner and intermediate lifters make with a Westside template is dropping all quad work. Especially for a non-geared lifter not lifting with a monolift quad strength is still pretty important.
I would also keep the external rotations in the program and either up the sets on the rows, add more in, or cut some volume on internal rotation work. You have quite a bit of an imbalance there.
Danny
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I guess it kind of depends on your goals but I love any form of squat or lunge. Specifically - Full squats and front squats along with bulgarian split squats and lunges with the front foot elevated.
These are the ones I typically use but there is a ton of kickass variations.
Danny
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Limitations are for people who have them.
actually my lunges aren't that bad, but my Bulgarian split squats are pretty unstable and weak as a result of that. So how should I fix this? Before I start with the Westside routine, I'll probably do a correction routine for my postural imbalances. But I think I still need some exercises in the Westside routine to prevent my imbalances from coming back.
I'll also deal with the internal/external rotation imbalance later on today.
Are pullups and rows with elbows pointed back considered pro internal rotation? because of the lat involvement?
Also, Are there any other imbalances in the routine I need to correct?
Whether or not you need to do a full routine before you start this one really depends on how bad off you are. In most cases you can just slighty adjust your training and warmup and deal with any problems.
To fix the abductor weakness, do you have any type of exercise bands? Side steps with a band rapped around the knees works great and so does some glute work like bridges and scorpions. This stuff can all be done as part of your workout.
Then adding a unilateral exercise or two into the routine should also really help. Bulgarians and single leg deadlifts would work great.
The pullups are internal rotation, the rows are external. All of the bench pressing is also internal.
Just throw in some more volume on the rows you already have. Up the number of sets.
Danny
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