Talking to Cappy at the gym got me think today about how I treat max effort lifts, general sport competition, and injuries.
I train in the gym to improve athletically and to be better able to perform general life tasks. I pay a moderate amount of attention to form, but I am on the high side of coordinated and athletic - most good form is very natural for me. The objective of time spent training is to make me more likely to win an athletic competition or to be able to perform a difficult task in life. When performing on the field, or in life the goal is more important than the form(a real ugly whooping sidearm pass that goes for a touchdown is the difference in a win and a loss, not how well it adhered to conventional form). If I am trying to lift my car out of a ditch, I am going to do what it takes; if I can get the extra 2 inches needed by breaking form, guess what is going to happen. Drill/train form to make it more natural and more likely to happen in the real life situation. But how bad is form breakdown? This may be most easily seen in martial arts. I am no expert herin, but it seems to me that most schools spend hour after hour drilling form. In a real life situation the techniques and form provide structure, but strict adherence to perfect form is not likely.
How do you treat max effort lifts? I treat them as competition and do what it takes. Hopefully the training I have done will help me perform the lifts with good form, and advert any possible injury. But I deffinately put more effort and concentration into making the lift than into my form. Now I am not saying I go stupid and wrench, and jump, and jerk a deadlift up. But I know form perfection isn't happening. I will video my max effort deadlift next time around.
I know there has been mention of injury lately from deadlifts. For a healthy back, what is it that causes injury while deadlifting? Same for squatting, what form rules may/will result in injury when broken? Are the injuries that happen usually already there and waiting to happen, or are they actually caused by impropper technique. Is it the bad form itself, or something that is more liekly to happen because of the poor form?
I just know from experience in weightlifting, having good form produces better results in strength and hypertrophy. Having bad form is 1. lazy, an ego booster 2. injury prone.. deadlifting wrong can hurt your back, squatting wrong will make it less credible, benching wrong could cause a shoulder problem, or make it easier.
Form is not always about preventing injury, but also about doing something right for better results. Now as far as martial arts goes.. they do that certain thing for a while because when you get it done perfectly, the technique will be more powerful. Martial arts form though is a lot harder than weightlifting, so we'll not get into that.
Bad form = less results, more ego boost rather than muscle or strength boost, and more injury prone
For max effort pulls, it is all about locking the weight out. I've talked to strong guys at my gym, guys who pull in the 600s, and they all say that everyone's form is great when the weights are light, but max lifts are about doing what it takes to get it done. If you are an experienced lifter and have performed the lift many times, muscle memory should basically take over. Its not going to look as pretty as lifting 225, but it shouldn't be that bad. I guess my point is that you should be focusing 100% on lifting the weight. This is where training partners are helpful to 1) provide encouragement and 2) help you analyze your form after you dominate the weight.
I've put 50 lbs on my max dead in the past 2 months (385 to 435) by... not deadlifting. I squatted deep, did power cleans, heavy high pulls, and SLDLs. Every now and again I would do some deads, but they were not a staple of my program. It is such a taxing lift... it is hard to train it heavy frequently (more than once every week and a half) without killing myself. Hammer the posterior chain muscles and you don't really need to deadlift that often.
I can't really address the injury issue, but I used to have some back problems before I started deadlifting. They are gone now.
When attempting a max lift or performing a lift in competition, how does "Bad form = less results" and why is having bad form lazy. I can't imagine refering to my PR pull today as a lazy effort. A max effort pull isn't about doing something right for better results, it is about measuring results obtained from training. I agree that form is important and should be learned and trained for best results. I am talking about the ramifications of letting form slip for competition or for a competition like setting.
The form of a front punch is NOT harder than the form of a snatch. The environment that it is performed in is likely much more stressful though. Technique is drilled in a less stressful environment, or with a lighter load, to teach it and ingrain it so that it is more natural to perform in competition/real life. Very few fights have perfectly formed punches, just as most max effort snatches do not have perfect form.
What is less credilbe about a squat that has a slight rise in the hips out of the bottom before the sholders rise? Or one where the bart tilts an inch or 2 to one side?
If benching "wrong" made it easier, wouldn't that be benching right?
I drill snatch technique over and over, but if my arms bend an inch early on a new PR attempt, should the lift not count?
I am hoping to hear something more thought provoking than the typical "Form is more important than weight," "Bad form causes injury" To what extent, and in what cases. What bad forms cause the injury or the lack of credability. Should I refuse to pick up a grocery sack because the shape forces a rounded back to grasp it? If a basketbal shot hits the glass and goes in, but you didn't call "bank" should it really not count?
When attempting a max lift or performing a lift in competition, how does "Bad form = less results" and why is having bad form lazy. I can't imagine refering to my PR pull today as a lazy effort. A max effort pull isn't about doing something right for better results, it is about measuring results obtained from training. I agree that form is important and should be learned and trained for best results. I am talking about the ramifications of letting form slip for competition or for a competition like setting.
I miss-interpreted the thread, max-effort lifts are different. Sorry
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What is less credilbe about a squat that has a slight rise in the hips out of the bottom before the sholders rise? Or one where the bart tilts an inch or 2 to one side?
I'd imagine that could make you fallover, I'm laughing thinking about a mistake like that lmao.
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If benching "wrong" made it easier, wouldn't that be benching right?
No. If you don't go all the way down on a bench press, and all the way up, that's bad form. If you don't have an almost even grip on the bar, you'll have an imbalance problem.
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I drill snatch technique over and over, but if my arms bend an inch early on a new PR attempt, should the lift not count?
No it shouldn't [img]tongue.gif[/img] . OK now I'm just being an ass.
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Should I refuse to pick up a grocery sack because the shape forces a rounded back to grasp it?
No, because it probably doesn't weigh anywhere near 300lbs
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If a basketbal shot hits the glass and goes in, but you didn't call "bank" should it really not count?
WTF? o_O call out bank? O_o I've never heard anything like that. Is that like saying "flying panther stalks its prey and pounces" before you jump off a tree onto someone and take him/her down? o_O
Anyways.. I misinterpreted the thread a little bit. Max efforts and compromising form in real-life and athletic situations is fine [img]tongue.gif[/img] . I'd say get the technique down, if compromising form during live situations = more athletic ability in something, then ok. Working on the technique in just workouts and practice though you should try to get form down. OK I'm done
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