Would a regular pull/chin up on a bar be considered a closed chain exercise, since the bar is fixed, or is it still open chain, since the body is mobile/free to move?
If it is closed, then I imagine using rings makes it open chain, since the rings are mobile.
And, if one verion is closed chain and one is open chain, what is the difference between the two in terms of body action and benefits, and why would one do one over the other or intentionally incorporate both types into their workouts?
i think the pull/chin up is a closed chain exercise. Closed chain exercises means that the distal end is fixed (i.e. the feet when doing a squat, hands when doing a pull/chin up).
i think you would use one versus the other depending on joint stability.
im not 100% sure though. hehe..im still in school learning all this stuff.
Would a regular pull/chin up on a bar be considered a closed chain exercise, since the bar is fixed, or is it still open chain, since the body is mobile/free to move?
If it is closed, then I imagine using rings makes it open chain, since the rings are mobile.
And, if one verion is closed chain and one is open chain, what is the difference between the two in terms of body action and benefits, and why would one do one over the other or intentionally incorporate both types into their workouts?
Both are closed (bar and rings) because it is the distal segment (meaning the forearm) that is fixed, not just the hands (open vs. closed is really an issue of joints and their function, not muscles). Open vs. closed chain doesn't have quite the same meaning in upper body exercise as it does in lower body exercise (knee joint arthrokinematics), but there will likely be greater antagonist co-contraction in joint stabilization in the closed chain movement, and altered motorunit recruitment patterns. However, it is also important to consider that, in terms of the upper body, the majority of functional every-day movement is performed through open-chain movement, and not closed, which could impact programming for specific required needs.
Thanks for the reply, bi. I mostly get that, but I've got to give it a few minutes of consideration when I have some time. That, and comparing the explanation to some text/online review.
Of what significance/value is it to determine whether an exercise is open or closed chain?
If one determines that an exercise is closed chain, what is the other end of the kinetic chain?
Can the same exercise be open and closed chain?
Are submaximal isometrics open or closed chain?
If doing a chin-up on a ring (which is technically free moving except in one direction), it may not fit Steindler's original interpretation of closed chain, correct?
Are the demands and resultant kinetic chain responses the same for all open and closed chain exercises?
Is the response throughout the kinetic chain the same each time the same exercise is performed?
Bill MY original question was largely from the perspective of technical/theoritical analysis/interest. I just got thinking about it, that's all.
But as a practical matter, I was also wondering if it really matters whether one does pull/chin up movements on a bar and on rings, if both are available, at least based on the nature of the movments. Or, for that matter, doing horizontal pullups versus bent-over rowing. It's along the lines of the notion of doing pushups rather than, or in addition to, benching actions.
Depending on your current strength levels, horizontal pull-ups might not be sufficiently challenging to recruit your larger motor units. If you're already doing BO rows with 75+% of your body weight, then I can't see the horizontal pull-ups being difficult enough to get the same workout.
__________________ You're not the only one improving yourself... I worked out with a dumbbell today -- I feel vigorous!!!
Of what significance/value is it to determine whether an exercise is open or closed chain?
For an otherwise healthy individual concerned with a basic conditioning program, not much, other than some amount of proper mixture of open/closed movements for overall joint health. For an athlete, sport specificity will have a greater impact on exercise selection and open vs. closed chain analysis can have a greater impact on the spcificity and transferability of the exercise. For rehabilitation, it can be extremely important, depending on the type of injury and what is required (acl, labrum tear, etc).
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If one determines that an exercise is closed chain, what is the other end of the kinetic chain?
The proximal segment, which moves in response to the muscle action (I'm not sure that I understood the question, actually )
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Can the same exercise be open and closed chain?
I would say no, arthrokinematically, anyway. The leverage in the system will dictate which "end" will be moving. While certain exercises, such as supinating pullups on gymnastics rings, or even a leg press, could be considered to be containing open and closed chain movements/aspects, at the joint of movement it is still one or the other in terms of what is occurring at any given moment.
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Are submaximal isometrics open or closed chain?
It depends on the type of submax movement: isometric elbow flexion would be open, while isometric chinup holds would be closed, in terms of the ligaments and connective tissues. In terms of the joints, I would say that they are neither, since there is no movement occurring, there is no arthrokinematic movement issue.
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If doing a chin-up on a ring (which is technically free moving except in one direction), it may not fit Steindler's original interpretation of closed chain, correct?
Correct Which is why, personally, I think that his original definition should be re-examined and re-interpretted, which for the most part, it already has been in the literature.
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Are the demands and resultant kinetic chain responses the same for all open and closed chain exercises?
Not at all...each joint and associated joint materials have a specific and typically unique response to open and closed chain movement...the shoulder and knee are perfect examples of this.
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Is the response throughout the kinetic chain the same each time the same exercise is performed?
yes and no...specific joint angles, especially in multi-planar diarthrotic joints such as the shoulder and hips, will effect the relative stress on a joint and the connective tissues, depending on the angle, weight/force, speed, etc. Arthrokinematically, in terms of the concave/convex rule, as it is applicable, I would say no, although there may be small affects that I am not aware of, all of which are subject to the generality of the c/c rule and the "true" nature of the osteokinematic movement within the joint.
ok i have a question, what is the difference between open and closed chain? and examples of each would help me greatly lol.
Well, now I'm not so sure...
An open chain exercise is one where the distal segment moves on the proximal segment, as in a bicep curl or leg extension. A closed chain exercise is the opposite: where the distal segment is "fixed" from moving, and the proximal segment moves on the distal segment, as in a chinup or squat. While you can think of it as whether the hand or the foot is moving or stationary, it is more accurate to look at the movement of the bones that make up the segments of the joint and how they respond to the movement. In that respect, a leg press, which might be considered an open chain exercise becuse the feet are moving, can actually be classified as a close chain exercise, by seeing that the femur(proximal) movies on a fixed tibia (distal).
Here is one explanation that seems simple and useful:
"In 1955, Steindler suggested that the human body could be represented by a chain of rigid segments connected by a series of joints.8 He observed that the pattern of muscle recruitment in the leg was different when the foot was fixed than when the foot was free. The term closed chain describes exercise in which the distal appendage is fixed, as in a squat or a pull-up. Open chain refers to movements in which the foot or hand is relatively free, such as during seated knee extension or throwing a baseball."
My point was that trying to determine whether a movement is closed chain or not is of little value. True closed kinetic chain movement patterns don't occur in humans.
For instance, if you call a squat a closed chain movement, the other end of the body is open chain as it it free to move.
In essence, what you have is a continuum of movement patterns with varying degrees of "openess" and "closedness".
For instance, is a standing cable push an open or closed chain movement? Well, what's your perspective? From the ground up it would appear to be closed, yet the push motion is open. However, if you continue the movement until concentric failure, the distal segment now meets a significant resistance. Is it now closed chain?
A chin-up is considered closed from the gripping segment, yet the lower body is open.
Walking up stairs would appear to be a closed chain activity, but exercising on a step mill/stairclimber would be open. However, if you delay the step pattern or increase the resistance it would be "more" closed.
Cycling is a closed system with a great deal of openess but at the most inferior portion of the pedal stroke, it is closed.
The lower extremity in skiing is attached to the ski but the surface is not fixed.
Dillman's categorization of movements may be a little better (fixed w/external load; moving w/no load, etc) because it considers the continuum aspect of open/closed chain. EMG research also supports the influence of load in regard to changes in muscular activity with similar movement patterns.
In the end, it really doesn't matter. As you can see from Bipennate's answers, it's just a vague (yes and no, it depends, it could be both...), generalized descriptor of movement patterns with very little value.
My opinion is that you should look at issues of transferablity/specificity of one activity to another when making training/movement pattern decisions. For instance, chin-ups (closed-chain upper with open lower) can improve club head speed in an golf swing and bat velocity in a baseball swing(open chain upper and closed lower), so I'm not seeing tremendous value in the general classification.
Closed and open chain pullups/chinups?
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