Squuezing another rep out..........................
I love this little read it really makes me try harder its from Ken Hutchins book Super Slow: The Ultimate Exercise Protocol it will help you out on those final reps when you think you can't do another one:
"Pretend that you are performing leg extension. You complete four repetitions and begin a fifth.
You sense that your speed is bogging down. You remain determined to maintain a uniform speed. However, the speed grows slower as you become weaker.
Realise that as your musculature becomes weaker, it becomes feeble. Often it can still lift the movement arm, but only very slowly. Such slow movement and muscle feebleness dull sense of position and movement.
Even though you are moving, you do not perceive it. You must actively sense or feel to detect movement.
Deliberately refuse to accept the idea that you are no longer moving. Believe in it. Have the mind set that even though the muscle is incapable, I'm going to complete the movement anyway!
In many cases, upward movement will continue and you'll complete the repetition. Give it time. Whittle on it. The repetition may require 30 seconds to finish.
Once the repetition completes, smoothly lower it and try another.
Never, never give up if additional positive movement is possible. And then stop only after you've spent another 10-15 seconds trying for an extra fraction of an inch."
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Sure I will bite.
What is the benefit of squeezing out these last few reps under these conditions. Surely your form will have failed and your muscles will be exerting the lowest possible force to lift the weights.
This seems to be contrary to lifting with perfect form and lifting fast or explosively.
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I dont follow the explosive fast lifting technique in my training, just a preference that is working for me.
And quite the contrary re form we are not talking about throwing your body weight around here its using good form and maximum exertion to see if you can push that weight that extra inch to total muscle failure and overcoming the psychological barrier that you cant lift no more. So if you are pushing that weight for 15 seconds chances are you will get some movement, the next time you lift that weight it is likely to go further :-)
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I'm not a trainer or an expert, but I think slow is bad. I also think failure, on a regular basis, is bad.
Slow is good if you want be slow. Perhaps slow negatives, slow being a relative term, are okay, if you're into slow negatives, which I'm not...
Virtually any training method works for a while, so slow may even work for some, I suppose. They'd be better off using "not slow," in my, untrained opinion.
"Failure" is a tremendous strain on the CNS and should be avoided on a regular basis. Failure to avoid "failure" can result in restless sleep, nervousness, fatigue, and of course, traditional "overtraining."
There are times when "failure" can be incorporated into a training program. But one should be careful not to overuse it. It's better to avoid it, altogether, than to do it incorrectly.
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I do my deads slow about half the time. For me it mimics patient lifts from the ground. We don't lift fast bc its not to nice for patient comfort and it scares them. I agree though that training to failure all the time is bad news. It will fry out your CNS and make you sick as a dog (no offense LD [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )
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Jen, what are you considering slow? 3 seconds from the ground to waist on a heavy attempt, or 10 seconds; there is a huge difference. Lifting in 2-3 seconds, smoothly, should not scare most people. I would be much more worried about not moving more than a few feet in 10 seconds.
BFG, have you ever been able to follow up a forced 30 second eccentric, with even a slow concentric; let alone another full rep?
I am not a big fan of HIT or slow training. Not to say that this hasn't provided results for some, but I perfer other methods, which have also show to provide results. Why would I pretend to perform a leg extension? Do you think this method transfers over to free weights BFG? Would you push for 30 seconds halfway up against an overhead squat or halfway through a good morning? I don't think my isometric strength is so much stronger that I could hold something for 30 seconds that I couldn't lift. With pulleys and cables the difference between the static and moving friction of all the parts may make this possible - but with free weights ???
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I don't follow SuperSlow protocols and haven't studied the method in any depth to offer much in the way of informed opinion.
With that said, my understanding is that SuperSlow places a great deal of emphasis on form (which is something we should all be aware of regardless of speed of lift) and it seems to me that if you are in such a state of fatigue that it requires anything up to 30 seconds to complete a lift then form *has* to go out the window. Such a situation begs the lifter to use body english, shuffling of feet, cheat movements, anything to complete the lift.
I would also expect that anyone trying to complete such a slow rep would require the assistance of a spotter just in case of miscalculation of what they can, or can't, complete.
I would caution anyone trying to force out such slow reps at any time, much less if they are performing squats, good mornings or bench press.
I would also wonder about the induced fatigue of not just the muscle or the CNS, but other soft tissues such as ligaments and tendons.
It is one thing to encourage a spirit of work, but another to encourage a practice of lifting that has such obvious consequences.
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Buk its more like 5 secs. but I don't do it too often and only on deads.. the rest of the time i rotate my training for strength and strength endurance.. I see I must have missed the point earlier. 10 secs is crazy I don't get the point of that!!!
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BFGs post struck me as something of a way to get around a mental failure instead of a physical failure. Most people, especially those new to training fail mentally before physically. They feel a bit of burn and give up. I think as people get more experience though, when failure occurs it's an actually physical failure. At that point there is very little they can do to continue moving the weight in the direction they want it to go w/o lessening the load somehow either by taking weight off or cheating.
BTW, I'm a big fan of power/speed workouts and avoid anything 'slow'.
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Spot on Eastcoast, I refrained from posting as it wasnt meant to be a discussion per se just something that helps me focus mentaly
Its very metaphoric as eastcoast points out. Its getting past that burn and realising actualy you can push that little harder. You know when you are there and you simply cant squeeze another iota out of the movement without sacrficing form.
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not sure if this is completely on topic.. but here is my 2 cents worth..
at our gym the trainers advocate 3-0-3 all the time..(for regular workouts) I get quite sick of the 3 secs tempo.. and sometimes speed up.. but I've heard that going slower is for hypertrophy.. my fencing master way back in the 70's didn't know that I think.. and that's how I got my huge (for a lady) legs.
So I would never go more slowly or maintain..
well in "Buns of Steel" we do maintain for our Glutes.. but that something else [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
and I do hold positions for core work.. but that doesn't really seem to pump up the size of my muscles.
Re: Squuezing another rep out..........................
It may be metaphoric, but it also gives the impression that absolute failure is ideal, and super slow training is the way to go. These ideas should be challenged on a public board, and we owe it to those that may read this to express that those who follow the super slow methodology are in the minority in this community.
Training hard and breaking mental barriers is good, but 30 second forced eccentrics would cause an extreme level of fatigue that in general most of us believe don't belong in the daily routine.
Re: Squuezing another rep out..........................
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Jen, what are you considering slow? 3 seconds from the ground to waist on a heavy attempt, or 10 seconds; there is a huge difference. Lifting in 2-3 seconds, smoothly, should not scare most people. I would be much more worried about not moving more than a few feet in 10 seconds.
BFG, have you ever been able to follow up a forced 30 second eccentric, with even a slow concentric; let alone another full rep?
I am not a big fan of HIT or slow training. Not to say that this hasn't provided results for some, but I perfer other methods, which have also show to provide results. Why would I pretend to perform a leg extension? Do you think this method transfers over to free weights BFG? Would you push for 30 seconds halfway up against an overhead squat or halfway through a good morning? I don't think my isometric strength is so much stronger that I could hold something for 30 seconds that I couldn't lift. With pulleys and cables the difference between the static and moving friction of all the parts may make this possible - but with free weights ???
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I think you are taking the 30 secs too literaly. I do all my trainng on 5/5 cadence the last one is a push to see if I can move the weight, yes machines and free weights. Negs I do sometimes go for the full 30 secs but normaly only for 1 rep.
With the free weights tho I do tend to have a spotter more often than not or am working with my trainer. But that would really only be for exercises like the bench press or dumbell pullover where Im likely to drop it in my head or chest!
Its not zen or budhist chanting its just helps focus thats all nothing more. Helped me push my max on the plank too.
Re: Squuezing another rep out..........................
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In many cases, upward movement will continue and you'll complete the repetition. Give it time. Whittle on it. The repetition may require 30 seconds to finish.
Once the repetition completes, smoothly lower it and try another.
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This is the part I dont particularly care for. If it took you 30 seconds to complete the last rep, odds are pretty high that you are not going to get the one. Most people give up well before 30 seconds anyway, turning my bench spotting into an upright row session.
Re: Squuezing another rep out..........................
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think you are taking the 30 secs too literaly. I do all my trainng on 5/5 cadence the last one is a push to see if I can move the weight, yes machines and free weights. Negs I do sometimes go for the full 30 secs but normaly only for 1 rep.
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I don't go past 6 secs for 3-0-3 tempos.. so that's twice as long as my aim.. I think if we can't do an exercise in twice as long as we wanted to, in good form, then we're doing another exercise all together.
Re: Squuezing another rep out..........................
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It may be metaphoric, but it also gives the impression that absolute failure is ideal, and super slow training is the way to go. These ideas should be challenged on a public board, and we owe it to those that may read this to express that those who follow the super slow methodology are in the minority in this community.
Training hard and breaking mental barriers is good, but 30 second forced eccentrics would cause an extreme level of fatigue that in general most of us believe don't belong in the daily routine.
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Fair do's Buk cant argue with that, I dont agree, but each to their chosen method. I never said it was the way to go anyway but it has been my chosen route and does workfor weightloss and weight gain.
The underlying principle of the post tho is just cos you dont feel you cant do anther rep dont give up chances are you will achieve it if not you sure as heck will next time.
But re the injury comments made by others I have been training this way for over 6 months now and making nothing but gains and still no injuries. Am likely to change routines slightly over the next few weeks though anyway as am getting bored of this set up. Whilst its challenging a new philosophy is needed now and again to ensure motivation is maintained
Re: Squuezing another rep out..........................
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A MAX EFFORT squat that took even 15 seconds to complete the eccentric moving ever so slightly the entire time would be an awesome sight to see!
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really dont understand your issue here Buk/ Are you telling me you never ever go for total burnout on an exercise?
I did that earlier today with two spotters present never made it all the way up tho and looked like John Wayne afterwards! (Who stole my bloody horse tho!)
Sometimes with other exercises you wont even move it an inch (thinks shoulder presses last week) but the actual effort involves invariably ensures progression the following session hence my weights going up as often as they do
Re: Squuezing another rep out..........................
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In many cases, upward movement will continue and you'll complete the repetition. Give it time. Whittle on it. The repetition may require 30 seconds to finish.
Once the repetition completes, smoothly lower it and try another.
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This is the part I dont particularly care for. If it took you 30 seconds to complete the last rep, odds are pretty high that you are not going to get the one. Most people give up well before 30 seconds anyway, turning my bench spotting into an upright row session.
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Odds??? I should think its near on impossible, but if you try to exert maximum effort in moving it you will know for sure that you can/cant.
One thing I found when I started doing super sets and slow movement is that visual perception of what you can lift is often far lower than what you can achieve.
Think of it like this. When you start a new routine because the format is different it often means you are gaging your starting weights as you know you wont be able to do your pb's on all exercises due to positioning in routine. Sometimes you get the starting figure wrong and go too low other times you get it right. You only have to go through peoples logs on here to see regular instances of that. Or when someone achieves a new PB, maximum efort is exerted and they may unconciously have taken longer than they normaly would to achieve it. Its no difference.
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Ive seen a max PLer bench take about 15 seconds, but it was more of an isometric because the bar was floating to get past the sticking point. It was pretty badass.
Re: Squuezing another rep out..........................
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Ive seen a max PLer bench take about 15 seconds, but it was more of an isometric because the bar was floating to get past the sticking point. It was pretty badass.
Re: Squuezing another rep out..........................
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Odds??? I should think its near on impossible, but if you try to exert maximum effort in moving it you will know for sure that you can/cant.
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If a rep took me 30s to do, I would rather err on the side of probability that I wont get the next one rather than know for sure.
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One thing I found when I started doing super sets and slow movement is that visual perception of what you can lift is often far lower than what you can achieve.
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You can say the same of strength training. People are afraid of lifting heavy weights.
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Think of it like this. When you start a new routine because the format is different it often means you are gaging your starting weights as you know you wont be able to do your pb's on all exercises due to positioning in routine. Sometimes you get the starting figure wrong and go too low other times you get it right. You only have to go through peoples logs on here to see regular instances of that. Or when someone achieves a new PB, maximum efort is exerted and they may unconciously have taken longer than they normaly would to achieve it. Its no difference.
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Im not sure what your point is here. Sometimes a max lift takes longer, and during the first week youre getting a feel for a new routine, but so what?
Squuezing another rep out..........................
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