at age 51, i'm working my way through TAP and am reading New Rules and Scrawny and it occurs to me, in terms of eating and in terms of (in New Rules terms) hypertrophy vs fat loss that i don't know what i am and what to train/eat for.
on the one hand i'm incredibly skinny - 6' with twigs for arms, a sunken chest, and a bonafide pencil neck.
on the other hand, i'm a fatty -- 6' and 185 lbs. basically the fat is packed around my midsection, with a good bit slogging around my lower back i bet. can you say love handles?
so what do i do about this? do i eat to fix my twig arms and sunken chest or to lose weight? i.e. do i eat more calories or fewer? and how do i think about my lifting in, say, New Rules terms.
i am confused and look forward to clarification!
thanksl.
I'm taking it from this you're a beginner. That actually makes it easy. All that stuff about 'cant gain muscle while cutting', doesnt really apply to beginners. Eat to lose weight (not drastic, just below maintenance), and lift to gain muscle.
I havnt read it, you probably want to do the beginning fatloss routine from the new rules (after their break in routines). Get that gut under control first (no need to go for a 6 pack, just get it mainly gone) then worry about bulking up. You should get good strength and lean mass gains along the way even though you're cutting.
I agree with Bjs in that being a beginner you should see good gains in whatever program you choose. All 3 programs you mentioned are good so my advice would be to pick one and stick with it for now. buster
Work on getting more muscular. You need to build a house before you paint it, and if you try to cut without a base, youll be dieting longer and more drastically, and will probably not look the way you want to look.
If you gain more muscle, your metabolism will rise and youll lose more fat at rest than if you try to cut now. Also, once you have a base, then because of that higher metabolism, you dont have to diet down as much because you actually have muscle to show but also are able to burn more than you can right now.
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if you try to cut without a base, youll be dieting longer and more drastically
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Tis far eaiser and quicker, in my experience, to reduce the calories now in a cut than it is to strike the balance of adding bulk and then reducing fat . It is also more motivational as you have stated your goal and regardless of new perspectives this is what you really want to achieve.
12 weeks to a toned waistline is what it could take. Have a look at the links I posted up on the routines thread for the aptly named Lose Your Love Handles Challenge. Thenhave a look at the web based thread. Its dead simple to follow. Everyone that has followed the diet and programme to the letter has wildly exceeded their goals
From the way you decribed yourself I would say its more important to add muscle then to try cutting an already scrawny frame when it comes to overall muscle. Besides being a newbie will work to your advantage, it's one period where people have shown they can add lean muscle while still losing fat. The added muscle will then help burn calories for a future cut..
I think a will cut and paste your ? and present it to Alwyn over at T-Nation (with your permision) and see what his response would be, I'm curious myself!!
ah but just think of the rebound affect after the cut if he then starts upping the cals having built a sturdy core and improved lean muscle the routine I mention wont build lean muscle per se as its extremely difficult to do so on a calorie deficit but it will improve the quality of what he does have already
I've been cutting, but between dropping calories (staying under 2,000 per day) and upping activity, I actually stopped losing weight for the past week or so. So I'm picking up the eating. Once before when I did that I actually lost weight and seemed to muscle up a bit.
I dunna know how useful a study would be though, I think alot depends on why he is like that now? I've seen studies suggesting processed foods, white breads etc can cause fat storage in the gut more than other areas.
Maybe if he cleans up his diet and loses weight sensibly he won't lose to much more muscle and the fat will go away quickly, at 185 he can't be to much over weight, leaving a leanish frame to work with. But if he on the other hand eats stupidly and lifts heavy he will gain muscle and also fat, and maybe to much of a fat to muscle ratio given his current level of leanness.
I think we need to know if it's just how he is, or if it's been a lifetime of horrible dietary choices that caused it.
I think a beginner, in particular, can eat better at around maintainance and end up droppng some fat and gaining some muscle. I believe that Mahler has said that he has eaten at about maintenance for the past four(?) years since starting to work out, and he has lost fat and gained muscle, such that he is about 10% bf. I think it can depend on the person and how their body responds.
Chris try the calorie cycling I suggest and also yes if he does the routines I suggest he will also appear to have greater muscle as they dont deplete but tone and he will be there in no time at all.
beginning to think people think I am spouting b*llshit that so many have achieved good and relatively quick results with it
That's what I'm doing right now by upping the cals. I seem to get stuck at high teens bf, around 155 lbs for me; my body seems to get stubborn at this point. So, I figure I'll eat a bit more for a week or two, see what happens. I can always use a tad more muscle, even if I keep the fat I have. Plus, after three or four weeks of dieting, I start feeling gassed in tkd classes, unless I do no other working out/running.
When we went to Korea, our Grandmaster made us literally stuff ourselves, yet I came back after 10 days about a pound heavier than when I left. I didn't think we trained THAT hard, but I guess we did, particularly when sessions last two or two and a half hours.
Do you have any additional links/resources on the cyling process, or just what you noted above? I've seen some writing on this in the past; I suppose I can google, but I'd be happy to take a link to whatever you found helpful.
BAsicaly take your max and minimum then cycle down 200 up 100 down 200 until you hit your minimum, the week after that is heavenly as you go straigh back to your max again (max still being in deficit
yeh sorted now but you dont need that one its for da big big guys.
Depending on your body fat now if 20-12% would say follow that if already sub 12 I can send you one to get your 6 pack in 10 weeks no gimmicks same prinicples??????
(mind you all those wusses on Mens health that asked for that challenge dropped out as they couldnt hack it except one hero at home and he motivated me to finish and he achieved as well)
how long have you been consistantly training? have you seen any results thus far?
if you're just starting out, being consistant about working out would be the priority. after you have that down, then you might think about "bulking\cutting". too many people try to jump in too fast and too specific when it's not really necissary.
start with the basics. do you workout, get your diet in a happy place. after a month or three of consistant effort on both re-evaluate how you're doing and where you want to put effort in.
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yeh sorted now but you dont need that one its for da big big guys.
Depending on your body fat now if 20-12% would say follow that if already sub 12 I can send you one to get your 6 pack in 10 weeks no gimmicks same prinicples??????
(mind you all those wusses on Mens health that asked for that challenge dropped out as they couldnt hack it except one hero at home and he motivated me to finish and he achieved as well)
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Thanks for the offer BFG, but I'm not sub 12. I'd be happy to be at 12. I'm more like 18-19% according to the Tanita scale. Upon reading those docs, maybe a further bump down on cals is what's need. That, or drinking that ice water!
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i.e. do i eat more calories or fewer? and how do i think about my lifting in, say, New Rules terms.
i am confused and look forward to clarification!
thanksl.
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IMO its far easier and more motivational to strip off what fat you have first and then bulk once you have achieved your first goal.
If your experience is low on free weights follow this routine and diet :
Both will melt away the love handles via the diet and water combo with gym being there to help you improve your form and strength and therefore tonation (if there is such a word) of the muscle.
Follow them to the letter and expect it to be, no sorry guarantee ;-), to be toned in 12 weeks
Thanks for the offer BFG, but I'm not sub 12. I'd be happy to be at 12. I'm more like 18-19% according to the Tanita scale. Upon reading those docs, maybe a further bump down on cals is what's need. That, or drinking that ice water!
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follow that and you will be :-)seeing your dedication you would surpass it no problem in circa 14 weeks and probably hit 11%!!!!
wow what a great load of help -- thanks! some pix (sigh) are below and here are a few other answers:
I just finished phase 2 of TAP and am about to begin the 5x5-oriented phase 3. I don't know my current and before measurements but i can see no difference, though I was able to up my weight on every exercise during every workout. i have had this physique since i was 15, or about 35 years, and nothing physical has seemed to change it. for instance, i kayak surf -- a very strenuous activity -- about 3x a week during the summer and about 2x a week during the winter. that's a whole bunch of paddling per week and yet you wouldn't know it to look at me.
and when i was a kid, for about ten years I surfed all summer long each summer and while it beefed up all my pals, it did squat for me. and we all ate the same: junk, pretty much, so a lot of this must be genetic, i'd guess.
as to my current diet: eggs in the morning, chicken at lunch, chicken at dinner, some veggies but not many. my daily shake has been about 2-3 cups o' skim milk, 2-3 scoops whey, 2 t creatine, i package carnation instant breakfast. recently, i've cut back on the shake to only workout days. handful of nuts a day. and then ... every other day or so ... i binge on crap: 10 Oreos here, 1/3 box of Wheat Thins there, Mexican til i'm about to pop, and so on. In terms of flab, getting control of that would probably make a huge difference.
so that's where i stand.
more thoughts?
and now, without further ado, the physique (if you could call it that, and pls remember i am 51!) in question:
at a burn rate of 4 litres a day equaling 1600 calories a week you'd be mad not to but in this weather cold is sufficient to burn circa 1000 a week anyway
OK Linter First off 51 or 21 that aint a bad figure
How much water tho do you actualy consume as I bet a huge portion of that could be shifted as I mentioned above.
Ask yourself this what do you want out of exercise quick clean efficiency? eating loads and spending hours longer to burn off the excess?
there are a thousand ways to skin a cat, but what would you prefer? we can only suggest ways, but one thing is given on each of the ways, a whole day of pigging will not the good body maketh
So how bad do you want it? And what do you feel is the best way for you? If anyone says the "Over eating Plan" i'll scream cos that aint gonna work here methinks!
BFG> the thing is if you're really, honest to god, eating clean healthy foods and following any regime (esp a beginner) then you can and will have dramatic composition changes WITHOUT bulking or cutting. The difference being eating healthy vs eating like ass combined with an increase of physical activities.
Eat vegis at every meal.
Don't drink calories.
If it don't grow or shit in a field\stream then don't eat it
Follow a excersise plan (see fitness faq) as perscribed with no alterations.
Do that religously for 3-4 months and I'll kiss your behind if you're not leaner\more musclular appearing.
bfg: well you hit the nail on the head w regard to water. i load up on coffee in the morning and generally turn my nose up at water the rest of the day. if you think upping my h20 intake will make that much of a difference, i have nothing to lose but weight by trying it.
ideally i'd like a nice efficient plan -- in and out of the gym in an hour more or less, which is what appeals to me so much about the TAP structure.
i couldn't find your "love handles challenge" thread; might you post a link?
again, thanks for your help.
btw / steelerfan, feel free to post my query over on alwyn's site:
"I think a will cut and paste your ? and present it to Alwyn over at T-Nation (with your permision) and see what his response would be, I'm curious myself!! "
what\'d\'ya do if you\'re fat *and* skinny?
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