CrossFit on the Kipping Pullup

[Q.]

I tried the search but couldn't find the previous discussion of this topic.

http://www.crossfit.com/cgi-bin/disc...=22&post=34589

[I. Kay]

I have a problem with this part:

"1) Begin from a static hold at the top of the pull-up.

2) Drop as quickly as possible to the bottom of the pull-up. While the body is dropping press the shoulders (feel the arm pits STRETCH) forward and the hips backward. This will result in the body somewhat resembling a stretched out letter C with the hands on the bar, the shoulders slightly in front of the hands and the hips slightly behind the hands.

3) Bounce strongly out of the bottom position. Use the momentum from the bounce to propel yourself back up to the bar, strongly reversing your body position on the way up. Do not attempt to stop precisely at the top of the bar, but allow the body to go as high as it wishes. Your may find that your hands are also hopping slightly off the bar at the top if your kip has been powerful. Finish with hands on the bar, shoulders slightly behind the hands and the hips slightly in front of the hands. "
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Dropping as fast as possible... bouncing...??? First of all, how does the bouncing contribute to the stated goal of power, and secondly, this seems like a great way to mess up your shoulders. Sure, an experienced exerciser can control it, but dropping and bouncing... a can just FEEL the yank on my shoulders.

I'm not saying kips are terrible, but this description makes me cringe.

If anybody can refute my gut reaction, please do! I'll feel better about it next time I see it done.

[Steve-O-68]

I'm with you rock, I hear ligaments popping, muscles pulling, tendons screaming... I, for one, don't see the benefit to kipping. Sure, you can get more weight up or get a few extra reps out, but I see it as cheating, and not getting me closer to any of my goals.

Cheatin's bad... mmm kay?

[BjsAust]

I read about 8 pages in seeing if they addressed that, but they didnt.

The interesting part to me was they talked about how it increases (or focuses on) force, not strength. It does that by using bigger stronger muscles (legs, hips, etc) to gain the momentum, resulting in the arms/backs doing much less work than in a dead hang chinup. What I couldnt work out was if they still considered it as good for strengthening the arms/back? Is its focus on building whole body force and not really caring about its place as a back workout? Different focus/philosophy if so.

Does crossfit still consider muscle balance in its workouts?

[Buk]

One thing I will mention is that the posts on that(or any) thread aren't necessarily Crossfit's view, that is an open public forum hosted by Crossfit, but there are often different and conflicting views to be found there.

About the specific posts that you mention RockHard. I don't know abut you, but my arms don't have enough spring in them to "bounce" me back up over a pull-up bar. I don't really love that description, but based on experience I can see what he is describing, and it really isn't so bad as your gut reaction to reading it. I am not a great coach, but one thing I do understand is that what you tell someone to do isn't alwas what you want them to do. Sometimes you say what you want them to try or to think about, to get them to do what you want them to do. "Heels, heels, heels" is a que that will help many a squatter; but doesn't mean that your toes should completly come off the ground during squats, but that you should move more that way. That post you point out is by Christopher Sommer, a long time high level gymnastic coach; I am guess that is how he teaches his gymnasts with success. That description to someone without that type of background may be lacking. I think I understand the description, but my experience with kipping pull-ups helps.

I usually do regular pull-ups, but kip once and a while. I do think they have benifit, the same as push press have benifit; but I do push presses a lot. If you see value in push presses, I'm not sure how the connection to kipping pull-ups can't be made. There is no cheating about it, it is a different exercise, with different demands and benifits. As I see it the "bounce" doesn't really do much work for you, like I said, my arms aren't that springy. The "bounce" gets you into position for the next rep. Think about the position that he describes, and I think that you will see that the strain and yank on the shoulders isn't as bad as your gut reaction makes you believe. The position you are dropping into has your shoulders in front of your hands, and your hips behind your hands. This may be a stretch for less flexable shoulders, but it requires strength to obtain this position, you can't actually drop into it in a tearing sort of way. The bounce is more like a swing to reverse the position of your body and put the bar in front of you to start the next rep.

So the answers to your 2 specific questions in my opinion:
The bounce doesn't really contribute to the next rep, it is more of a swing that gets you into position. Maybe kipping pull-ups aren't for unexperienced lifters who can't control it. This description was from a coach of high level gymnasts.

I think Eva does a good job of giving a quick demonstration of a progression to learning the kipping pull-up here. There are different techniques for the kipping pull-up, and I think hers varries from Sommer's a little bit. She is teaching someone with no experience on the kipping pull-up, and it is an exercies in my opinion that requires technique and skill at a similar level to snatches. My technique is poor, and that is why I don't do them a whole lot; but I have never felt like they cause excessive strain or pain for my shoulder or anything else.

I also am not Crossfit, this is my opinion, but I believe that kipping pull-ups are a credible exercise that can provede a strength and power benifit, can be done safely, and I know that they can wear me out. I am not suggesting that everyone do them, just as I don't suggest to everyone to do full cleans and snatches. I do however find it incredibly funny and sad when someone comes over to me while doing one of the 3 mentioned exercises and tells me that I am cheating or that you aren't supposed to lift so fast or use momentum. I always want them to demonstrate a slow snatch with no momentum. It is rare that someone warns me agains running or rowing too fast?

[Buk]

Yes, Ben, the kipping pull-up is a full body exercise, it is to a pull-up what a push press is to a military press. My experience with them is that my back gets what seems to be an almost equal workout kipping as not kipping, but then again I don't kip real well. You pull just as hard with your arms, you just add speed with the kip, same is true for push presses, you are pressing as hard as you can with your arms, but use your legs for extra speed/strength/momentum to get the bar moving and through the sticking point. But your upper body is working as hard as it can, that is why you can do more reps or weight.

I am not exactly sure how much programming goes into Crossfit's free WOD, but after following it fairly strictly for close to 6 months, the distribution of work seems pretty good to me. I think they are more lowerbody centric than most, but that fit with my goals.

[kuri]

If your goal is strength then kipping probably wouldn't be included as part of your workout. But if your doing pullups as part of energy system work then I think they have a place.

I'm not convinced by the arguments presented on that thread at Crossfit, but when I want to bang out a large number of pullups in a short amount of time I'll employ kipping.

The choice of words in the above description is terrible- agreed. I understand what is meant by "bounce" but as far as my kipping goes it isn't really a bounce but more of going for continuous movement (am I doing them wrong?).
They reall do hit the back and arms though - my biceps always get fried.

edit- read Buk's posts above for a more coherent explanation.

[BFG]

I can see how it would benefit you in a gymnastics based workout where it relies on fast twitch explosive movements but as others have pointed out it kinda defeats the object of the exrecise if you are using momentum to bounce you back up and not employ all the muscles to take the strain. Thats why momentum in any exercise can often lead to muscle imbalance and poor form

[kuri]

Define momentum then because it seems to me it's crucial for Oly lifts, which are kings of power development movements (not talking about strength).

[BjsAust]

Thanks Buk. My impression was that kipping doesnt work the back/arms as much, but it sounds like a more accurate description would be that they dont work as much per rep but its more even over the whole workout.

[BFG]

[ QUOTE ]
Define momentum then because it seems to me it's crucial for Oly lifts, which are kings of power development movements (not talking about strength).

[/ QUOTE ]

the weight controlling the movement and not muscular control

[UpNorth]

Here is an excellent "how-to" on kipping pull-ups

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-video/eva-on-kipping.wmv