Dos and veganism

[bryanc]

Hey Dos,

How strict a vegan are you? I'm in my blood course and we were talking about vitamin B12 deficiency in very strict vegans as a possible cause of B12 deficient anemia. Since B12 is found only in meat, and meat products (including dairy and eggs), where do you get your B12? And if you're supplementing with B12 supplements, what's the source of B12 in those supplements?

Or are you an ovo-lacto vegetarian (i.e. no meat, but will eat eggs and dairy products)?

[dos]

Hey Bryan,

Yes, I am a vegan and have been since June 1, 1988.

There are actually numerous plant souces of B12 although their levels and absorbability are questionable. In fact, spirulina is NOT recommended as a plant based B12 source as it can actually contribute to B12 deficieny (some sort of 'competing' B12 component?) Sea vegetables like seaweed along with fermented soy products like tempeh and miso all have B12 present. Organic vegetables also have B12 present although it takes something like 20cups of organic spinach per day to meet RD requirements!

I tend to rely on fortified vegan products like my soy milk, cereals, and wheat gluten or soy-based 'fake' meats. if a product is labeled 'vegan' it must get all of it's nutrients from plant-based sources. Lastly, there is one very solid plant source of B12. There is a product called "vegetarian support formula' Red Star nutritional yeast flakes. This is a 'cheesy' flavored substance that can be addeds to soups, sauces, vegan mac & cheese etc. You can also throw it in a shake not too tasty...Anyway, 2 tablespoons of this stuff supply 8 mcg's of B12, well above the RDA of 2.4 mcg's so 1 tbspn thrown in a daily shake will do the trick.

[bryanc]

Thanks dos! I kinda figured there would be plant sources of B12, but just not where. It must a pain in the arse for those companies that supply the B12 for fortified products to get plant B12...

[DKing]

Hey dos this is something I have always wondered but never thought to ask. I hope Bryan doesn't mind me piggybacking his post.

Most vegans I know (not many but a few) tend to have serious problem with animal testing and experiments on animals. This is very understandable but these people also never run into the need to test things due to the fact that they aren't in science based professions. I know you have posted in the past talking about how certain studies were cruel and I am just curious you view on it in general.

As someone who reads journals and works in a scienced based profession what is your reaction to animal based studies? (I am not talking about the type where they test chemicals on them or anything more like the ones using rats studying obesity and similar. Ones more closely related to your profession)

If you don't want to answer or its too personal thats cool. I just got to wondering about it because I was talking to a vegan friend and mentioned a study about rats and muscle and they were talking about how wrong it is to do these studies. So I just got to thinking how would someone who works in the profession but is vegan feel and I thought of you.

Danny

[dos]

Byran, First off...it is actually hard to know 100% if any of the fortified vitamins/minerals come from animal or plant sources. They don't have to list 'where' etc. In fact, you would be surprised at how many WINES and even BEERS! have animal products in them! God forbid!!! Anyway, unless the procut says "vegan" there is still a chance that the B12 for example came from an animal source.

Danny, I think that's a great question and one that is actually pretty tough to answer. I think there are some very atrocious, cruel, useless tests being done on animals every single day. Just read about some of the tests that are done at the Oregon Regional Primate Research Center...here is one whistle blower account of some of th shit that goes down..

IT'S NOT THE MONKEYS WHO NEED THEIR HEADS EXAMINED
Judy L. Cameron, whose research is similar to experiments previously conducted by human behaviorists, conducts experiments on monkeys designed to "shed light on abnormal behaviors in children."

Ignoring sophisticated brain-imaging techniques used to study abnormal brain activity in humans, Dr. Cameron opted to study, kill and dissect the brains of other primates. "After all," says Cameron, "we can’t cut the heads off of children after the study ends to look at their brains."

In one part of Cameron’s "inhibition" study, monkeys are put in a cage and their reactions measured when a human enters the room. Called the "stranger test," it was adapted from current clinical human psychology labs. However, monkeys, especially those used in laboratories, react much differently to human eye contact and attention than would a human infant.

In another test, Cameron sews a large piece of hardware consisting of a transmitter and heart monitor under the skin of their backs. Then the young monkeys are returned to their enclosures and assistants fly a remote-control plane over their heads while monitoring their heart rates.

Another Cameron project is to study the impact of maternal absence during divorce by creating a "nuclear family" of rhesus macaques and then removing the mother at various stages of the infants’ development.

Martha Neuringer forcibly removes infant rhesus monkeys from their mothers to study the effects of maternal deprivation on nutrition. The infants’ stress, terror, and depression is exhibited by constant swaying, clutching at themselves, and self-mutilation. After years of torturing and killing infant primates at taxpayer expense, Neuringer has come to this conclusion: "Ideally, the fat content and fatty acid composition of infant formulas should resemble human milk."

Gerald Schatten focuses on trying to create identical and transgenic rhesus macaques.

Dr. Shatten obtains the sperm for his experiments through the process of penile electro-ejaculation, which can burn the animals’ genitalia. All of "Schatten’s males," as they are known, have various neuroses rooted in their being repeatedly subjected to this painful procedure. Records show that one monkey was subjected to electro-ejaculation on at least 241 separate occasions.

I could go on and on and on but that would probably be another thread altogether. Anyway, as far as what we find these days with exercise science research, most notably with rats...hmmmm, where should I start? Ok, I noted a few studies that killed hundreds and hundreds of rats for the sake of 'exercise science'. I have a real hard time with this. Do we really need to continue to test these animals on things like muscle fiber growth, aerobic enzyme responses, bone density after swimming etc. etc. etc.? We have basically done it all with these little guys haven't we? I mean there probably is a difference between killing a rat after running him to exhaustion on a treadmill to see what happens to his aerobic enzymes vs. say seeing how many tubes of ingested colgate toothpaste it would take to kill a rabbit...hmmmm, actually maybe not too much difference huh? Anyway, I digress.....the bottom line is that we, as humans, are obviously the king of the hill, the top of the foodchain, the rulers of the universe yadda-yadda-yadda. With this power, however, comes a couple of things #1 an amazing ability to think and reason #2 the ability to have and show compassion and #3 a responsibility to do what is right (this is the one that many people opt out of, not because they are evil but because of popularity, habit, influence from peers/family etc.). I think many people actually believe that you HAVE to eat meat to thrive or even survive.

Ok, enough rambling already Do I believe in animal testing for exercise science? No. I think there are far too many human studies that show us more and give us actual translation. Do I think there can be a place for animal testing? Perhaps in finding cures for cancer, AIDS etc. but I would like to know all the other options first. If stem cell research could be a key to finding cures for various diseases then let's go! I mean, there are still schools using frogs in biology dissections even though the computer software programs have proved to be far superior (and less goofy kids will get frogs thrown at them by the 'cool' kids during labs). Why?

Anyway, I have this quote up on the wall in my office.....I really like it

"Cowardice asks the question 'is it safe?' Expediency asks the question 'is it popular?' But conscience asks the question 'is it right?'. There comes a point when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor polite, nor popular, but one must take it because one's conscience tells him or her that it is right"
Martin Luther King Jr.

I am not telling anybody to become a vegan or to take my stance on on animal testing. I do what I do because of my beliefs and my conscience. I don't eat animals because of ethical reasons and because I don't need to. Does this mean that I am grossed out when I go to a friends house for a BBQ or think less of one of my buddies because he is an omnivore? Hell no. I would hope that my vegetarian friends that I had when I was growing up and eating EVERYTHING that moved, didn't think less of me because of it either. It was a decision based on my beliefs. While it was often difficult being a vegan in the early 90's (due to virtually ZERO food choices at restaurants etc.), it really was not a 'hard' decision at all.

I think my career field is the best in the world but I also think there is some awful, meaningless exercise science testing going down all over the world. Hope that somewhat answers your question Danny....sorry for the unbelievably long post

[DKing]

Dos, thanks a lot that was really interesting. Don't worry about the length at all it was a great read.

After years of torturing and killing infant primates at taxpayer expense, Neuringer has come to this conclusion: "Ideally, the fat content and fatty acid composition of infant formulas should resemble human milk."

Studies like this are just amazing to read about. How in the world did someone get funding for a study like that? I often think that when reading about the really crappy research being done.

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

Bryan, sorry for the slight hijack.

Danny