Anybody wanna talk about em'?!?! Just figured a way to get my athletes to TRULY FINISH their pull (on pulls only, not complete cleans and snatches...)while emphasizing RFD....wanna hear how?
What a teaser huh?!?! Here's a hint...
__________________
Robert dos Remedios, MA, CSCS,
HCC (Hartman-Cosgrove Certified)
Director of Spood, Strength & Conditioning
College of the Crayons, CA http://www.canyons.edu/departments/pe/strength
"NO CHAMPION HAS EVER ACHIEVED HIS OR HER GOAL WITHOUT SHOWING MORE DEDICATION THAN THE NEXT PERSON; MAKING MORE SACRIFICES THAN THE NEXT PERSON; WORKING HARDER, TRAINING, AND CONDITIONING HIM / HERSELF MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON; ENJOYING HIS / HER FINAL GOAL MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON"
I have always loved the image below as I think it is the most BEAUTIFUL illustration of "triple extension" ever pasted on a t-shirt! [img]smile.gif[/img]
For our purposes (as sport athletes who are not weightlifters) I always tell my kids that this is the most important part of any of our Olympic variations...if we get to THIS point, I could care less if they make the catch to "complete" the lift. So this is what I mean by "finishing" the pull.
Anyway, in a traditional clean or snatch pull, this would be the finish position before dropping the bar or returning it back to the floor. What I was finding was that my athletes were not really pulling fast enough at the start of the 2nd pull nor were they really getting the big shrug that helps the hips come through (do you know what I mean??).
Sooooooo......now I tell them to LEAVE THE GROUND at the top of the pull! This, 100% of the time gets them to violently pull at the start of the 2nd pull (right above the knees) AND gets them to REALLY shrug and get the little backward lean that you see in the pic. If they don't do these things, they WILL NOT get off the ground, GUARANTEED! Nothing earth-shaking but a pretty effective modification of a traditional "pull".
Funny thing is that I used to do these "jump-pulls" as a change-up lift but now these are my new "traditional pulls".
Here is a pic taken from a power clean and illustrates one of the more common problems with athletes pulling with the arms too soon....notice how she is not at full knee or hip extension yet she is well into her arm pull (or 3rd pull if you've ever heard Ian Pyka talk...). It's not too bad of a lift for a non-weightlifter but once again we have not properly addressed what we set out to emphasize....triple extension....she's never gonna get on this particular lift.
__________________
Robert dos Remedios, MA, CSCS,
HCC (Hartman-Cosgrove Certified)
Director of Spood, Strength & Conditioning
College of the Crayons, CA http://www.canyons.edu/departments/pe/strength
"NO CHAMPION HAS EVER ACHIEVED HIS OR HER GOAL WITHOUT SHOWING MORE DEDICATION THAN THE NEXT PERSON; MAKING MORE SACRIFICES THAN THE NEXT PERSON; WORKING HARDER, TRAINING, AND CONDITIONING HIM / HERSELF MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON; ENJOYING HIS / HER FINAL GOAL MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON"
I definitely understand about leaving the ground; that's how I do all of my oly lifting.
I've got a question for you about pulls: for my pulls, I essentially do an explosive shrug (including hip and knee extension) but allow my arms to go limp and the bar to fly up as far as possible. In your last message, you mentioned the 3rd pull (which I believe is the arm pull portion) -- should I be including any arm pull in my pulls? What about snatches and cleans?
I thought arm pull was not desirable in these exercises; the hands and arms act like hooks rather than muscling the weight up.
Your feet will generally ALWAYS leave the ground when doing cleans, snatches etc. (as your feet go from a "jumping" base to a "catching" base) It is when doing "pulls" that you basically end the lift when you reach maximum extension + shrug. This is why I add in the actual "jump" so that they pull just a little bit harder....
You are doing your pulls just fine (as long as you are finishing up on the balls of your feet... ankle plantar flexion). As far as "arm pulling" goes, you do, in fact, have to eventually pull with the arms at some point (usually as you reach max extension but when the feet are still in contact with the ground) when doing cleans & snatches. The tough part is getting athletes to not pull TOO SOON (as in the pic above). As the saying goes "when the elbows bend, the power ends".
In a clean or snatch "pull", however, you want little to no elbow flexion. as we are not catching the bar. Now, in a clean or sntach "high pull", you would continue the pull until the elbows reach maximum height...triple extension + this so-called "3rd pull". In theory, this is the point when you would reach maximum bar elevation and prepare to catch as the bar reaches "zero gravity" by going through the process of pulling under the bar. Hope that helps....as I read this, I think even I am now confused!
I just like posting pics...can you tell?!?!
Here are some DB snatches..pretty good triple extension on the right...
Hey Bill looky....our best baseball player doing 70+kg split snatches?!? YIKES! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Typical baseball player....can you EVER get thoses guys to take off their hats?!?!?!
__________________
Robert dos Remedios, MA, CSCS,
HCC (Hartman-Cosgrove Certified)
Director of Spood, Strength & Conditioning
College of the Crayons, CA http://www.canyons.edu/departments/pe/strength
"NO CHAMPION HAS EVER ACHIEVED HIS OR HER GOAL WITHOUT SHOWING MORE DEDICATION THAN THE NEXT PERSON; MAKING MORE SACRIFICES THAN THE NEXT PERSON; WORKING HARDER, TRAINING, AND CONDITIONING HIM / HERSELF MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON; ENJOYING HIS / HER FINAL GOAL MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON"
Now don't you know that Oly variations aren't good for baseball players .
I can't remember where I read it or heard it, but the recommendation was regarding how important it was for jumping athletes to leave the floor during their lifts. I've never actually had my golfers leave the floor, but just tonite one of my guys was having trouble getting the full hip extension we so desire. He thinks he needs to drop under too soon. I can assure you that he will leave the floor next week!!!
Dos, do you teach the power snatch or power clean first. I've found that teaching the power snatch first and cuing to keep the arms straight and elbows out as long as possible has reduced the tendency to pull with the arms as pictured (I'm sure you know that...it was more for discussion purposes).
Do you have anyone do full oly lifts?
Bill Hartman, USA Weightlifting Sports Performance Coach (still waiting for the club course to come through Indiana! )
P.S. Do you know Eric Burkhardt from U Cal Irvine? He did a great job teaching the clean at the NSCA Conf. I'm using it with great success. If we get to Little Rock for a Men's Health thingy or SoCal, it'd be a great thing to add if you're interested.
Dos, that make perfect sense. I guess I was doing high pulls and thinking they were pulls (how many variations of these lifts can you make???)
I probably am using some arm pull in my snatches and cleans, but just don't realize it when compared to the effort of my back and legs. But I try to make it as little as possible. As soon as I try to muscle the weight up at all, I quit the set to make sure I'm not learning bad form.
Josh,
You really have to videotape yourself...there are times when I just completed a "perfect" pull power clean with a decent load and then when I look at the tape, I don't quite get "Double knee bend" or the arms bend too soon etc. The tape NEVER LIES!! I am (along with MOST of my athletes) one of those people who will start seeing "early arm pull" as the loads increase.
Bill,
Ironmind training hall tapes are AWESOME! I'm still trying to figure out how some of these 14 year old kids are closing the #3 captains of crush grippers and I CAN'T
Also, YES I am friends with Erik Burkhardt, he has helped me with our annual clinic...I am actually trying to get him to teach a USAW club coach course at my place (he's a senior level USAW coach...). and YES, I DO like to teach the power snatch before the clean as it does, in fact, seem to be more effective at keeping the athletes from getting into the "arm pull" thing right away. Lastly, NO, I don't do the "full" clean or snatch only because I think it teaches my athletes to try to get under the bar too son and bottom out (I know it does me). I would RARELY see triple extension...just a whole lot of exaggerated jumping and stomping....then the kid completes a front squat or overhead squat with a weight that I already know is easy for him/her.
One of my KEY cues is "Pull high-Catch high"...I think this really gets my kids to think about maximizing their power (the bar is really traveling a long way now...especially on a 6'8 bball player)...I actually have a great video clip of my bball center doing a 130kg power clean....Hey JP, anyway to post a video clip???? You have to see how far this bar travels (you should see him power snatch!).
One LAST thing, it is Sooooo much easier to teach the Olympic style lifts and avoid arm pull with INEXPERIENCED lifters...my best technical lifters are my female athletes and my "non-bench-pressing-type-of-guys" (muscle guys)...these are arm-pulling-son-of-a-guns! Take Care!!!
__________________
Robert dos Remedios, MA, CSCS,
HCC (Hartman-Cosgrove Certified)
Director of Spood, Strength & Conditioning
College of the Crayons, CA http://www.canyons.edu/departments/pe/strength
"NO CHAMPION HAS EVER ACHIEVED HIS OR HER GOAL WITHOUT SHOWING MORE DEDICATION THAN THE NEXT PERSON; MAKING MORE SACRIFICES THAN THE NEXT PERSON; WORKING HARDER, TRAINING, AND CONDITIONING HIM / HERSELF MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON; ENJOYING HIS / HER FINAL GOAL MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON"
If you can't get the clip up on the forum, email it to me. I'd love to see it.
Give me a heads up on your club coach course. I really liked Eric...perhaps there's a long shot that I could get there (I do love SoCal).
Great thread!
I'll have to take a photo of one of my older guys...because of some shoulder and wrist issues he's been doing DB high pulls. I have to smile every time he does 'em (he's 63 by the way). He looks like the t-shirt logo you posted. It has also done wonders for his power off the tee. He's out hitting "kids" 30 years younger than he is!
I came across this page while looking for something else. Pretty nice discussion of the force-velocity curves. It may provide some assistance in understanding the application of the oly variations.
We need to tattoo a force velocity curve on the foreheads of these guys.... Caveman Training Site
Don't get me started.....here's the mission statement: Our Mission: "To promote safe,productive, and efficient methods of strength training for high school and collegiate athletes while debunking the olympic lifting establishment that has engulfed many of our high school and college athletic programs. It is our desire to create better athletes through controlled and intense strength training."
Reminds me of how Cosgrove and I were twitching in our seats at the H.I.T. session @ NSCA Indy, watching grown men scream in pain as they were doing 10 second duration LEG CURLS! OH THE HUMANITY!!!!!
__________________
Robert dos Remedios, MA, CSCS,
HCC (Hartman-Cosgrove Certified)
Director of Spood, Strength & Conditioning
College of the Crayons, CA http://www.canyons.edu/departments/pe/strength
"NO CHAMPION HAS EVER ACHIEVED HIS OR HER GOAL WITHOUT SHOWING MORE DEDICATION THAN THE NEXT PERSON; MAKING MORE SACRIFICES THAN THE NEXT PERSON; WORKING HARDER, TRAINING, AND CONDITIONING HIM / HERSELF MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON; ENJOYING HIS / HER FINAL GOAL MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON"
Dos,
I was looking at your posted photos and watched your videos again, and I had a thought (it happens on occasion)about the early pull with the arms on power cleans.
Are you lifters able to see themselves in the mirror when they lift (the photo of your female lifter...her eyes are focused straight ahead/down as her neck tries to extend)? If so, they may be using visual cues to determine when to start the pull under. This would also prevent a full extension pattern (perhaps preventing full hip extension) because the head will try to stay oriented toward neutral reflexively rather than tilting back in cervical extension.
It would be interesting to see how they do blindfolded (or just eyes closed).
Just a thought...by the way, if they're facing a blank wall forget everything I said. [img]smile.gif[/img]
Originally posted by dos:
Reminds me of how Cosgrove and I were twitching in our seats at the H.I.T. session @ NSCA Indy, watching grown men scream in pain as they were doing 10 second duration LEG CURLS! OH THE HUMANITY!!!!!
Quote of the weekend (from Dos) : "Everybody in here, is now dumber than when we walked in"
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