I posted this over on MH but I have been away from there for a while...it's not how I remember it. I guess I'll make this my new stomping ground.
Anyway, this was the question I had:
I used to do splits, either MWF or Mon, Tues, Thur, Fri where I would alternate back and forth between a leg day and an upper day. If I took a break of a week, I may get sore the first couple days back but that would be it - I wouldn't be sore again until the next time I took a break.
Well now, I'm at a new job and working out at a new gym with a couple guys from work. These guys are used to doing 1 body part per week. I'm always willing to try switching up my routine so I am giving it a go.
Anyway, every leg workout and every chest workout makes me sore for the next couple days. The back stuff, not so much. but I'm not used to being sore so much and it seems like its because there is such a long rest between body parts... Is this good, bad??? Should I go back to each body part twice a week or is this rest/soreness good for growth?
I mean, I make fun of bodybuilders all the time, but as Alwyn Cosgrove says, the guy doing a shitty workout with full intensity is going to get much better results than a guy doing the world's best workout half-assed.
Plus, most bodybuilders have arms at least 2 inches bigger than mine.
That said, I don't think this workout you're doing makes a whole lot of sense.
Monday:
The "legs" workout includes hundreds of muscles, more than half the mass on your body. So why give them only one day a week?
I don't think it makes much sense to squat and deadlift on the same day in any case, since it's so hard to generate maximum intensity in both lifts, and you're putting so much stress on your back extensors.
The key to safety in both the squat and deadlift is a neutral spine, and the muscles providing that stability can only do so much work with heavy loads.
As for the leg press, I don't know what the heck you can get out of that exercise that you couldn't get out of squats. You get half the benefit with more or less equal risk to your lower back, and on top of that you're training a functionally useless movement pattern.
Wednesday:
Whether you think of it that way or not, you're training your triceps here with the bench presses. And if you're doing two types of bench presses, I don't know what else you could get from the flies.
Remember, soreness isn't a sign of impending growth, and fatigue isn't the determining factor in muscle stimulation. It's the challenge you give your muscles to do something they haven't done before. Lift heavier weights on the bench presses, skip the flies, and you'll probably see better results.
Friday:
This is a perfectly fine workout; in fact, you're hitting all the upper-body muscles except the pectorals. (And even those are modestly involved in pullups, working with your lats to internally rotate your upper arms at the shoulder joint.)
How would I fix it?
The simplest solution would be to move the Wednesday workout to Monday, and move the T-bar rows to that workout. (And swat the freakin' flies.)
Then do your lower-body workout on Wednesday, but with a twist: One week, do the squats heavy and some sort of deadlift-family exercise light (good mornings or Romanian deadlifts, for example).
Then, the following week, do heavy deadlifts and lighter squats.
I'd also do the shrugs on this day, since the scapular-elevation movement of the shrug complements the scapular-retraction movement in the deadlift.
Then, on Friday, do your pullups and shoulder presses, along with dips or something else that really pounds the triceps. (Pushdowns are kind of a beginner exercise; I think the more advanced you get, the more you work your abs with that movement, rather than your triceps. That said, it's a hell of an ab movement if you focus on it.)
"I don't think it makes much sense to squat and deadlift on the same day in any case, since it's so hard to generate maximum intensity in both lifts, and you're putting so much stress on your back extensors."
I wondered about that, too. But the last 3 weeks of BoM Intermediate has me doing just that. Workout B is squats, then deadlifts.
Considering you wrote the book, what's different about BoM that makes this reasonable?
Wow, Lou. Thanks for the detailed response. I hear what you are saying. Leg day seemed a bit much to me, too. I am going to take you comments and rearrange this thing and see how it goes.
Originally posted by Lou Schuler: I'd also do the shrugs on this day, since the scapular-elevation movement of the shrug complements the scapular-retraction movement in the deadlift.
I try to pull my shoulders up and back as far as possible at the top of my deadlift... would this not accomplish much the same thing and eliminate one extra exercise? ... or is that movement different enough to warrant the addition of shrugs?
I liked what you said about intensity! I've gotten to where I only do a few exercises a day but try to wear my a$$ out on the ones I do.
"I don't think it makes much sense to squat and deadlift on the same day in any case, since it's so hard to generate maximum intensity in both lifts, and you're putting so much stress on your back extensors."
I wondered about that, too. But the last 3 weeks of BoM Intermediate has me doing just that. Workout B is squats, then deadlifts.
Considering you wrote the book, what's different about BoM that makes this reasonable?
It is like this in some of the beginning routines in the BOM intermediate. I figured it was set up like that in the beginning to help build endurance for latter sessions. As far as it being in the last week I'm not sure why it would be set up like that. Also keep in mind I think Ian King may of had a bigger role in setting up the routines than Lou . Lou correct me if I'm wrong on that last statement or anything else I have said.
And I should've qualified what I told Kevin with what I'm about to tell you here.
But I didn't, and here's why: I forgot.
Thanks for letting me clear that up.
Let's look at BOM intermediate, stage 3, weeks 18-20: Yes, you do heavy front squats and deads in the same workout. But your work sets for both exercises are 6-1-6-1 waves. So you're doing a total of 14 reps of each exercise with heavy weights, and long rest periods (3-4 minutes) in between sets.
Granted, there's a back-off set of each exercise, with 10-15 reps, and that certainly creates some fatigue in the hip and back extensors.
But you're only doing that for 3 weeks, and then switching the workouts around so you're doing squats and deads on separate days for the next 3 weeks.
Then there's the program you talked about: stage 4, weeks 25-27.
You're certainly pounding your hip and back extensors there--three types of squats (heavy, powerlifting style for 2 sets, 4 reps; explosive, 1 or 2 sets, 6-8 reps), jump (1 set, 8-10 reps).
Then you do the same thing with three types of deadlifts.
And I'll admit, that's the opposite of what I just suggested. However, again, it's three weeks, and it's at the end of a 6-month program.
And even if you go straight from that to the advanced program, you're mixing it up again, starting with isolation work, then moving on to other training splits.
Quercus, I agree with you about shrugs. I can't remember the last time I did them--probably the last time I did one of Ian's programs.
But Ian has a good reason to do them: He always includes assistance exercises in various stages of his programs. And he considers shrugs a good assistance exercise for deadlifts.
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