With the new swimmers challenge, it seems like a good time to mention the topic. (Also RobLL warned me in my logs to be sure and incorporate proper exercises to avoid swimmer's shoulder. Thanks Rob)
With that, I open the floor for discussion. I know we have some experienced swimmers in here. I really want to hear how I can avoid the problem if possible. I'll start by just pasting in some things I found on the web. Not sure about accuracy so don't take this sht for the gosple.
I find Number 5 below interesting and am concerned since I am guilty of always breathing on one side..
The article I found suggested several main causes for swimmer's shoulder:
Improper Technique
reaching too far and over-rotating
crossing over in freestyle when pulling
Sudden increase in training distance or intensity
The use of pull buoys and hand paddles
Swimming only freestyle at every workout
Unbalanced strength development
Preventative Measures
One of the most important things in stroke technique when it comes to freestyle and avoiding shoulder injuries is to bend your elbows underwater during the pull. This is proper form and will keep you from putting your shoulder in an awkward position that leads to a rotator cuff problem.
When you've had some time away from swimming and are resuming training, always ease back into it. If, for example, you train with weights and had a 3-month layoff, you wouldn't try to max out on your bench press the first day back. The same applies to swimming. Instead of jumping back in and resuming the 5,000 meters you were doing before your break, start with something very light, like 1000 the first day, 1200 the next, etc.
Avoid the use of pull buoys and paddles. Although it is tempting, buoys merely give you a false sense of floatation and put unnecessary tension on your joints, especially your shoulders. Although there are paddles designed not to cause shoulder problems, most of the paddles out there are not needed in training, and will cause shoulder problems if you give it enough time.
Swimming only freestyle at all of your workouts may seem like a good idea if you are training for a triathlon, but I would not recommend it. First of all, you will gain more from cross training with other strokes. And most importantly, excess in any one stroke leads to a higher probability of an "overuse" injury.
If you breath to only one side, you will develop the muscles more on one side than the other, and this could cause a breakdown and a shoulder problem. Incorporate bilateral breathing into your workouts to avoid this. If it is extremely awkward at first, start with just breathing bilaterally in warm-up and warm-down, and slowly add it into the rest of your workouts as it becomes more comfortable.
Milkman21 swam competitively in college. Hopefully he will weigh in on your questions. You could PM him also.
-fin
__________________ “I have always done my duty. I am ready to die. My only regret is for the friends I leave behind me.”
-- Zachary Taylor, 12th U.S. President, 1849-1850
Milkman21 swam competitively in college. Hopefully he will weigh in on your questions. You could PM him also.
-fin
I emailed him and asked for his input.
Everyone keep in mind that I am a newb to swimming. Anything I post is just my best guess effort here. I know a lot of the stuff I hit via google search is probably crap but I was hoping to stir conversation on this. So don't believe is just cause Jimbo said it..sheesh. That would be blind leading the blind my friends.:p
coachesinfo has more information that seems to be better...good start but I don't agree with pull bouys...they can help body alignment in the water.
This is true, BUT, you have to teach your body to do that...hips, core, and legs, should all be kept from sinking, by your own body. You can use pull bouys for a bit, but, I think thier use should be kept to a minimum. I know some swimmers become addicted to them, as it makes it easy to keep your body in line, thus swimming is easier.
They do is isolate the upperbody, which CAN lead to shoulder problems if proper technique is not observed.
One of the cool things that the TI folks talk about and I've been trying to master is to basically just anchor yourself with your arm and not pull yourself through with it. It's the force you use to pull yourself through that, I believe, causes the shoulder problems. This is a hard one for me to grasp because I think we all believe that we've got to be working the arms just as hard as the legs but not so, according to some.
Rotating the hips helps with this and I often fall back into pulling hard with my arms but, the stronger my legs get, the closer I get to this feeling of "swimming through" your arm position and just using it as an anchor to push through from.
My legs absolutley propel me zero through the water. It's all arms with me. I really need to do som kind of kicking drills I guess. I suck at fluttering. Since childhood I have swam with a single kick on each side with each arm stroke. I move amazingly well through the water doing this all things considered. But I see other swimmers who are leaving me behind because of thier ability to kick well.
I just have tried, so far, to concentrate on swimming faster with less effort. Lengthening my body and stroke. Striving for more glide. Trying to find just the right amount of balance and roll.
One of the cool things that the TI folks talk about and I've been trying to master is to basically just anchor yourself with your arm and not pull yourself through with it.
I should go read some of the TI stuff again...I don't get this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
It really is an art.
No question. I suck at art too!
__________________ “I have always done my duty. I am ready to die. My only regret is for the friends I leave behind me.”
-- Zachary Taylor, 12th U.S. President, 1849-1850
My legs absolutley propel me zero through the water. It's all arms with me. I really need to do som kind of kicking drills I guess. I suck at fluttering. Since childhood I have swam with a single kick on each side with each arm stroke. I move amazingly well through the water doing this all things considered. But I see other swimmers who are leaving me behind because of thier ability to kick well.
I used to basically stand still when I was just kicking, no arms. I started trying a TI thing but I'm not sure if I'm doing it their way or not... but it works for me. I flip over on my back and kick from one end of the pool to the other. This way, you get all the air you need and you aren't trying to hold your head up or arch your back (which is unnatural for swimming anyway). I don't like kickboards for that reason. If I'm sharing a lane, I just keep my hand lightly under one of the lane dividers to guide me. TI advocates "lengthening the vessel" so I put one arm out over my head and try to streamline and lengthen myself as much as possible. After doing this for a while, I can really move through the water with just my legs and, when I flip over again for freestyle, I swim the best I ever do for some reason. A lot stronger and have a lot fewer SPL.
in response to the 'added reflection' about pulling.....
i originally posted this elsewhere, but on seeing your post i think maybe it belongs here... kinda... sorta.... maybe....
along these lines, something i noticed last night while swimming with my hands held in a fist. (simulating swimming with fistgloves.)
understandably there was little pressure from the water on my hands.... i decided to take it to the next logical progression. that is to say, that after hand entry and spearing, i not only focused on a weightless arm, but i also focused on not pulling at all with that arm, but rather, allowing the arm rotate below me as my body flowed over the point where my hand was....
this was such an entirely different focus on my hand. normally, when i pay attention to my hand it is to quickly mind-check the position, flexion and tension... focusing on not pulling but anchoring at a 'fixed' point in water really changes the perception of what one is doing. watching the bottom of the pool slide by knowing there is no pulling going on truly drove home that propulsion is coming from the hips and shoulders.
in thinking on this, it occurs to me that while providing no propulsion, the hands were critical to providing a balanced long axis that is so necessary for an efficient streamlined body in the water. the smooth movement through the water coming from an efficient, balanced form and a strong, active core.
or so it seems to me... but what do i know?
jim
seek not, find.
try not, do.
know not, learn.
be not, be.
On 3/22/2007 9:57:34 PM, Jim Sanders wrote:
>i decided to
>take it to the next logical
>progression. that is to say,
>that after hand entry and
>spearing, i not only focused
>on a weightless arm, but i
>also focused on not pulling at
>all with that arm, but rather,
>allowing the arm rotate below
>me as my body flowed over the
>point where my hand was....
I did exactly this when I was learning to "not pull" myself. For another interesting variation, extend just the index finger from your fist. How much purchase can you achieve and maintain with just that finger?
By the way, if you didn't already know it, Terry Laughlin is the guy who started TI and is still a competive swimmer in his 50's although he's long distance, not sprint.
I just found this too that talks about not pulling:
At each of our workshops, we give a lecture, using video to illustrate, in which we talk about the two paths to improved stroke efficiency. These concepts are then applied through the drills we teach. One path is Minimizing Drag and we explain that you minimize drag by mastering three "Eliminating Skills." These skills are:
1. Swimming Downhill – i.e. mastering balance.
2. Swimming Taller: Sheila characterizes this as "gliding" but we do not teach anyone to "glide." We teach them to use the hand to fully extend the body line before they use it to anchor—or "hold water" as Sheila describes it.
3. Pierce the Water—i.e. consciously slip your body through the smallest possible hold.
In the second half of this lecture, we describe the other half of the equation—how to Maximize Propulsion by mastering three "Creating Skills." These skills are:
1. Use your core-body as your engine.
2. Use your hands to "hold onto your place in the water."
3. Swim faster with your body, not with your arms and legs.
By the way, if you didn't already know it, Terry Laughlin is the guy who started TI and is still a competive swimmer in his 50's although he's long distance, not sprint.
I just found this too that talks about not pulling:
At each of our workshops, we give a lecture, using video to illustrate, in which we talk about the two paths to improved stroke efficiency. These concepts are then applied through the drills we teach. One path is Minimizing Drag and we explain that you minimize drag by mastering three "Eliminating Skills." These skills are:
1. Swimming Downhill – i.e. mastering balance.
2. Swimming Taller: Sheila characterizes this as "gliding" but we do not teach anyone to "glide." We teach them to use the hand to fully extend the body line before they use it to anchor—or "hold water" as Sheila describes it.
3. Pierce the Water—i.e. consciously slip your body through the smallest possible hold.
In the second half of this lecture, we describe the other half of the equation—how to Maximize Propulsion by mastering three "Creating Skills." These skills are:
1. Use your core-body as your engine.
2. Use your hands to "hold onto your place in the water."
3. Swim faster with your body, not with your arms and legs.
The first 3 points above..I get. But the last 3 escape me totally.
1. I can use my core to tighten my body and streamline my body through the water. But to "swim" using my core as my "engine"? I'm not disputing anything here. I just don't understand that. Propulsion HAS to come from you arms and legs. Remove them and see how far you go in the water.
2. Using your hands to "hold onto your place in the water" sounds like learning an effective stroke. ie..using your hands to feel the water.
3. I agree that you use your entire body in swimming and if you don;t understand that you will not improve much. But this DOES involve arms and legs.
I haven't read TI, but it sounds a little hocus pocus to me. No offense.
Hey Guys,
Avoiding swimmers shoulders?
I’ll speak from experience and not science.
First of all lets talk about what is the main cause behind “swimmers shoulder” epidemic.
Most swimmers when evaluated have very poor postures from certain tight and overactive muscles that create some major imbalances in their upper body extremities. Take a look at your thoracic spine, protracted shoulders and a head forward posture. Since freestyle is our dominant “training” stroke and is the one used most often when training in which you’re constantly maintaining a head forward and slightly up position which isn’t ideal in the real world. Over time that repetitive stress on the tissues will result in some form of an ache. To most it’s knows as the “swimmers shoulders.” So is it the technique that is screwing up the shoulders or is the poor alignment that the body adapts to?
Now I’m not saying that technique here isn’t important. I just strongly believe that if you want to keep your shoulders healthy and you want to keep on swimming and swimming well. Pay attention to your alignment on land before correcting your form in the water.
Tips:
thoracic spine mobility exercises
pec minor stretches and some sort of massage form should take place (art, foam rolling)
lat stretches and some sort of massage form should take place (art, foam rolling)
neck flexors must be activated (dry land exercises)
lower traps in most swimmers should be activated (dry land exercises)
lavetor scaps should be stretched out
scapular mobility/stability should be addressed
specific muscles should be strengthened on land
I will have more on this in my next article. I’ll make sure to post it in our section.
Hope that helps.
I haven't read TI, but it sounds a little hocus pocus to me. No offense.
I'm certainly not an expert on TI but there's a lot of folks who swear by this stuff. You might want to visit that forum and see if what you read there answers any of your questions... or join in to ask them directly.
pec minor stretches and some sort of massage form should take place (art, foam rolling)
lat stretches and some sort of massage form should take place (art, foam rolling)
neck flexors must be activated (dry land exercises)
lower traps in most swimmers should be activated (dry land exercises)
lavetor scaps should be stretched out
scapular mobility/stability should be addressed
specific muscles should be strengthened on land
I'm a HUGE believer in the impact of our daily posture on our athletic performance... or just daily functioning! I've learned the hard way in that I think mine has caught up with me and I'm having to do a lot of things differently recently.
Can you be more specific about the stretches? Any pictures?
There's not a foam roller at my pool... should I do these before I leave? I thought about using the foam "noodle" as a roller... that would be worth a chuckle!
I'm certainly not an expert on TI but there's a lot of folks who swear by this stuff. You might want to visit that forum and see if what you read there answers any of your questions... or join in to ask them directly.
I certainly don't mean to totally dismiss TI training. Hope I didn't come across that way. I just don't understand some of what I have read related to the TI training. Like you said..a lot of folks sure are doing it.
I'll poke around there and see if I can get my head around it. Lord knows I need to improve my swimming.
I just don't understand some of what I have read related to the TI training.
I don't either but I'm always open to learning something new if it will help and some of the stuff that I've picked up there has certainly helped. Then there's stuff that I don't use. Like everything else, I pick what seems to work for me and let the rest go.
I think that, for me, there seems to be something down that "path" that is enticing enough to make me want to walk a little further to find out what it is. Not understanding it completely is part of the mystery. I really like a lot of the mental part that people talk about more than anything so that's why I keep dabbling but I haven't dove in head first and most likely won't.
Hey Guys,
Avoiding swimmers shoulders?
I’ll speak from experience and not science.
First of all lets talk about what is the main cause behind “swimmers shoulder” epidemic.
Most swimmers when evaluated have very poor postures from certain tight and overactive muscles that create some major imbalances in their upper body extremities. Take a look at your thoracic spine, protracted shoulders and a head forward posture. Since freestyle is our dominant “training” stroke and is the one used most often when training in which you’re constantly maintaining a head forward and slightly up position which isn’t ideal in the real world. Over time that repetitive stress on the tissues will result in some form of an ache. To most it’s knows as the “swimmers shoulders.” So is it the technique that is screwing up the shoulders or is the poor alignment that the body adapts to?
Now I’m not saying that technique here isn’t important. I just strongly believe that if you want to keep your shoulders healthy and you want to keep on swimming and swimming well. Pay attention to your alignment on land before correcting your form in the water.
Tips:
thoracic spine mobility exercises
pec minor stretches and some sort of massage form should take place (art, foam rolling)
lat stretches and some sort of massage form should take place (art, foam rolling)
neck flexors must be activated (dry land exercises)
lower traps in most swimmers should be activated (dry land exercises)
lavetor scaps should be stretched out
scapular mobility/stability should be addressed
specific muscles should be strengthened on land
I will have more on this in my next article. I’ll make sure to post it in our section.
Hope that helps.
Hey guys, sorry I'm late to the party. I got Jimbo's message earlier in the week, but it totally slipped my mind to come check this out. I was in a math-induced coma for most of the last 14 days because of finals.
At any rate, RK hit on most of the things I was going to mention--and then some. One last thought, though, is to add some external rotator work to balance out the shoulders. Whenever I even had a hint of swimmer's shoulder, I'd spend some extra time in the weight room on external rotations, face pulls, etc., and the problem would "magically" disappear.
__________________ You're not the only one improving yourself... I worked out with a dumbbell today -- I feel vigorous!!!
The last post along with RK addresses the problem as I see it. Ever since injuring my shoulders swimming if I don't do the dry land exercises they get sore again and I hurt sleeping on my sides. I am going to get I/O and imagine I will learn quite a bit about shoulders.
I think that, for me, there seems to be something down that "path" that is enticing enough to make me want to walk a little further to find out what it is. Not understanding it completely is part of the mystery.
I have to admit..I keep looking at TI too for this very reason.
Like you said..there is a LOT of good stuff over there too. I have picked up some real gems there.
If/when I become one with the water I'll let you know bro. Till then I guess I'll keep watching faster swimmers leave a trail ahead of me.
Can you be more specific about the stretches? Any pictures?
There's not a foam roller at my pool... should I do these before I leave? I thought about using the foam "noodle" as a roller... that would be worth a chuckle!
My question is similar...was wondering if these exercises should be done right around pooltime or if they can be done anytime. I do have a foam roller at home.
I suggest putting something together for your off days, if you want to take care of some issues that you may have or just prevent injury.
Stick to mostly dynamic type stretches/mobility work before your swims (arm swings, leg swings, etc.) and static stretching right after your swims (contrast showers are also great for recovery.)
As for swimmers shoulders, I have all my swimmers perform proprioceptive partner exercises. It has significantly reduced shoulder problems in my elite group.
As for swimmers shoulders, I have all my swimmers perform proprioceptive partner exercises. It has significantly reduced shoulder problems in my elite group.
Please elaborate! I'd love to know what you mean by this.
Strengthen your rotator cuff muscles and your rear deltoid muscles. Perform a lot of small range of motion exercises to focus on your shoulders small supportive muscles like the rotator cuff muscles. Your rear shoulder muscles are paramount in shoulder stability and one of the most blown off shoulder exercises. Professional athletes such as quarterbacks, baseball players, especially baseball pitchers, constantly strengthen and balance their shoulder muscles via rotator cuff muscle exercises and strengthening their rear shoulder muscles.
Swimmer's Shoulder - How to avoid it.
Till then I guess I'll keep watching faster swimmers leave a trail ahead of me.
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