Kobe Bryant vs. Michael Jordan .... who do you take?
Listening to sports talk while on lunch right now and they're having a debate about who was/is the best player ever to play the game. With respect to Wilt and Dr. J, I don't think anyone can compare to Jordan. He was absolutely, insanely good.
There are people calling in saying that Bryant gets the nod, but c'mon.....
All-time, MJ is the guy for now. But we have to wait and see what Kobe can do with the next few years. Give him 3 more rings and the gap starts closing up. In my mind, they're the Top 2 2-guards of all-time. At his best, Kobe is as good as anybody ever has been. As good as he is, however, he has acted like a baby to the detriment of his team a few times. That Game 7 against Phoenix where Kobe didn't shoot in the 2nd half would have never happened with MJ. Talent-wise, they're equals. Mentally (and statistically), MJ's got the edge.
The real question... Will LeBron create a whole new level of his own before he's done?
it can't be current-to-current compare - it has to be prime-to-prime, right?
would you take Kobe over Magic?
I actually figured he was talking all-time body of work... to which it's hard to compare because Kobe's got a chance of realing off a few more MVPs/championships.
Where does LeBron play in here? I think, in a couple more years, he might have to be mentioned in that same elite group... assuming your talking about individual talents, not team performance.
Where does LeBron play in here? I think, in a couple more years, he might have to be mentioned in that same elite group... assuming your talking about individual talents, not team performance.
I think LeBron surpasses everyone right now from a raw talent standpoint. He's like a magical combination of Magic, MJ, Iverson, and Shaq. If he develops a post up game and keeps improving the jumper, it will be all over.
I'm talking (and they were on the radio) all-around player in their prime. Best mix of offense, defense, team player, leader, rings, mvps, etc.
No one tops Jordan.
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MJ led the bulls. You could see it in 94/95 when Pippen tried to lead the bulls to another championship, he couldn't do it. They had a great few seasons, but Jordan was just a leader.
You look at the lakers now without shaq, and they haven't won (yet). Shaq was more of a leader than kobe or at least more of a role player. Shaq won 3 with the lakers and then won with the heat as well. What did kobe do in 2005? They had a 3-1 lead and they blew it.
Yes, Kobe is good, and it's not all on his hands, but he is the leader of the team. If you want to be compared to the best, you gotta take the heat. MJ was the best clutch player, hands down. When it came to crunch time, he got the job done. Kobe hasn't.
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MJ led the bulls. You could see it in 94/95 when Pippen tried to lead the bulls to another championship, he couldn't do it. They had a great few seasons, but Jordan was just a leader.
You look at the lakers now without shaq, and they haven't won (yet). Shaq was more of a leader than kobe or at least more of a role player. Shaq won 3 with the lakers and then won with the heat as well. What did kobe do in 2005? They had a 3-1 lead and they blew it.
Yes, Kobe is good, and it's not all on his hands, but he is the leader of the team. If you want to be compared to the best, you gotta take the heat. MJ was the best clutch player, hands down. When it came to crunch time, he got the job done. Kobe hasn't.
Agreed 100%...Jordan also made other players better, just by his presence. I dont see the same in Kobe...he is more like an 'all about me' type player imo.
It's hard to say because it depends on how one defines "best". I think Jordan was the most versatile scorer ever and possibly the most athletic basketball player. He was a fantastic all-around player. So is Kobe but I think Jordan was a bit better. I'd put Magic and Bird up there as well. Though not as prolific scorers, they were greater than Jordan and Kobe in other areas (passing, rebounding, etc.) that made them just as valuable to their teams.
Between Jordan and Kobe I would definitely pick Jordan. Not because of the # of rings because that whole "greatness is measured in championships" saying is a load of crap held to too closely by those who believe sports cliches. I'd pick Jordan for a couple reasons.
First, Jordan seemed better at making his teammates play better. There has been quite a bit of talk of Jordan pushing his teammates and I don't hear as much of this sort of thing about Kobe. Jordan was definitely a better team leader than Kobe.
Second, I think Jordan was a bit better in the clutch. Obviously Jordan, Kobe, Magic and Bird were all great in the clutch, but between Jordan and Kobe I think Jordan was a hair better.
Third, statistically Jordan is better than Kobe in almost every stat. Over the course of their careers their averages were...
Whether taken over the course of the game, or on a per minute basis Jordan holds the advantage in almost every stat. The only stats Kobe has an edge in are 3-point shooting % and free throw % but he is only slightly better in both of those. The fact that the first few years of Kobe's career he was still learning and didn't play as much and the last few years of Jordan's career after his comeback his stats declined makes the comparison of their careers at this point pretty fair. So Jordan was a little better at scoring, shooting accuracy from everywhere but the 3-point line, setting up teammates to score, stealing, blocking, rebounding and preventing turnovers...statistically Jordan is without question superior.
Both are great players but when you add all that up I think it's pretty easy to see that Jordan is a clear choice over Kobe. There really isn't much of a comparison...and I say all of this as a Lakers fan.
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MJ led the bulls. You could see it in 94/95 when Pippen tried to lead the bulls to another championship, he couldn't do it. They had a great few seasons, but Jordan was just a leader.
You look at the lakers now without shaq, and they haven't won (yet). Shaq was more of a leader than kobe or at least more of a role player. Shaq won 3 with the lakers and then won with the heat as well. What did kobe do in 2005? They had a 3-1 lead and they blew it.
Yes, Kobe is good, and it's not all on his hands, but he is the leader of the team. If you want to be compared to the best, you gotta take the heat. MJ was the best clutch player, hands down. When it came to crunch time, he got the job done. Kobe hasn't.
You cant use the shaq argument. How many rings did MJ win without Pippen, Rodman, Grant, Armstrong, Kerr, the list goes on. MJ was a great player who always had a great supporting cast. You gunna tell me MJ would of won a ring with Smush Parker, Luke Walton, and no center? Pshhhhhh. Plus Shaq rode Wade and the rest of the vets coattails in 06. He had one game in Chi town. Zo played a bigger role against the pistons and mavs than shaq did. Hell Twan outscored him in about 5 of the last 9 games of those playoffs.
I will say that Kobe is a rare breed. He plays on both sides and along with MJ and Payton, a guy who is an amazing on ball defender and can put up 20/10 in a night. they do not make guys like that often. Kobe gets a bad rap because of his history, but kobe is kobe. They guy can score at will. For fucks sake, he put up 81 in one game.
You cant use the shaq argument. How many rings did MJ win without Pippen, Rodman, Grant, Armstrong, Kerr, the list goes on. MJ was a great player who always had a great supporting cast. You gunna tell me MJ would of won a ring with Smush Parker, Luke Walton, and no center? Pshhhhhh. Plus Shaq rode Wade and the rest of the vets coattails in 06. He had one game in Chi town. Zo played a bigger role against the pistons and mavs than shaq did. Hell Twan outscored him in about 5 of the last 9 games of those playoffs.
I will say that Kobe is a rare breed. He plays on both sides and along with MJ and Payton, a guy who is an amazing on ball defender and can put up 20/10 in a night. they do not make guys like that often. Kobe gets a bad rap because of his history, but kobe is kobe. They guy can score at will. For fucks sake, he put up 81 in one game.
MJ had a good supporting cast. They never had a good center though. They had luke longly who was AWFUL. They relied on jump shots and outside scoring mainly. Kerr was a badass shooter who doesn't get much credit. Rodman rebounded and played good D but didn't score.
You can't really say that shaq rode the coattails. How many rings did they win without shaq? They needed an inside force, and it seemed like shaq was the missing puzzle piece.
It's like rodman was the bulls missing piece in 97/98/99.
Jordan made the players play better. It's clearly evident from when he retired for 2 years. The team couldn't survive without him. 8 consecutive titles was a definite possibility. Kobe is good, but not Jordan caliber. When i watch Kobe play, it's all about the Kobe show, and not about the roles other players on his team play.
Maybe we remember two totally different teams when the bulls played, but Jordan's playing was much more mature than Kobe's.
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I dsagree that the Bulls couldn't survive without MJ when he retired the 1st time. Of course, there was a drop-off- they lost the best player in the game. However, they were still winning 50+ games and getting to the 2nd round of the playoffs. To me, that's a huge credit to the underrated quality of the talent in Chicago not named Michael Jordan.
If the same scenario would have played out in LA the last couple years, the Lakers would have been one of the worst teams in the NBA. They started Smush Parker and Kwame Brown. Those 2 guys couldn't get any playing time on terrible teams in Miami and Memphis this year. And I like Luke Walton's game, but he should have never been a starter in the NBA. So, I don't really think you can discredit Kobe by claiming he didn't make players better. He carried a bunch of scrubs to the playoffs on his back in a highly competitive Western Conference. Now that he's got a little bit of help, it's not a surprise that he's on the verge of the finals.
As far as life-time statistics, Kobe's averages are skewed becuase he came out of high school and wasn't a starter until his 3rd season. No question that MJ will probably always have better lifetime averages.
Not to say that Kobe is clear-cut the better player, but I think his game warrants a much closer consideration. I think Kobe's much publicized personal issues have caused people to really take for granted what a stud he is on the court. He's not quite the mainstream icon that MJ was - and I doubt anyone will ever match MJ's popularity.
You can't really say that shaq rode the coattails. How many rings did they win without shaq? They needed an inside force, and it seemed like shaq was the missing puzzle piece.
Without trying to completely hijack this thread, as the voice of the Heat on this forum I feel compelled to clear that statement up.
You cant say the lack of an inside presence was the reason the heat never won a ring before shaq got here. All those years when they had a championship team in the 90s and couldnt make it out of the east they had Zo. Zo was a multiple Defensive player of the year and in the top 5 in scoring of the league at the time so that argument is moot.
Again, before shaq when the team was pretty pathetic for a few years, a lotto pick at number 5 brought D-Wade. The heat made it to the playoffs that year and were taking down in a game 7. The next year shaq got there, they, lost in a game 7 in the East finals.
The next year shaqs numbers were dramatically down in all categories mainly GPs. Was shaq the missing peice? no. The year they were one game away from the finals, and the next year they won they had a completely re hauled roster. Riles got allot of flack when he added J will, Twan. Po Z and Payton. The missing piece of the puzzle was a vet point guard, SF, and a stronger bench.
Not saying shaq didnt have a role, but he was not the missing piece. It also didnt hurt that Wade averaged 34 a game in the finals, and over 42 at home in those three games.
As far as life-time statistics, Kobe's averages are skewed becuase he came out of high school and wasn't a starter until his 3rd season. No question that MJ will probably always have better lifetime averages.
True, they're skewed, but even without considering Kobe's 1st three seasons his career averages were:
45% FG%, 34% 3PT%, 84% FT%, 5.9 RPG, 5.3 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.6 BPG, 3.2 TOPG, 2.9 FPG, 28.3 PPG.
That's not even considering Jordan's drop in stats after coming out of retirement twice which would lower his averages. Statistically Kobe is an awesome player but Jordan is still still hands down better by the numbers. I admit this even though I'm a Lakers fan and I've hated the Bulls ever since they beat the Lakers in the finals.
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Not saying shaq didnt have a role, but he was not the missing piece. It also didnt hurt that Wade averaged 34 a game in the finals, and over 42 at home in those three games.
And went to the foul line every time a defender blinked!
That's not even considering Jordan's drop in stats after coming out of retirement twice which would lower his averages. Statistically Kobe is an awesome player but Jordan is still still hands down better by the numbers. I admit this even though I'm a Lakers fan and I've hated the Bulls ever since they beat the Lakers in the finals.
Yeah, removing Kobe's 1st few years closes the gap a bit. It's kind of hard to do traditional statistical comparisons across generations.
For example, in 1987 when MJ averaged 37.1 ppg, the league average was 109 ppg and the worst offensive team in the NBA averaged 103.
In Kobe's best scoring season (2006), he averaged 35.4 ppg, the league average was 97 ppg, and their was only 1 team that averaged over 103.
With that said, I find it nearly impossibe to compare their stats at face value. Had Kobe played in the mid-80's at a faster pace with less micro-managing by the coaches, I think he would have comparable stats to MJ's. Heck, maybe he would have a 100 point game on his resume. Similarly, if MJ's prime had come during this generation, he might not average so many points.
I don't have time to research the per possession breakdowns and efficiency rankings, but I think the gap closes pretty significantly when you take offensive pace into account.
PS- I love this type of discussion. I'm an NBA junky. Thanks for posting this, Terry.
I dsagree that the Bulls couldn't survive without MJ when he retired the 1st time. Of course, there was a drop-off- they lost the best player in the game. However, they were still winning 50+ games and getting to the 2nd round of the playoffs. To me, that's a huge credit to the underrated quality of the talent in Chicago not named Michael Jordan.
yes, they were winning games. But, they had no leader. Pippen led them, but when it came time to the playoffs, he choked. He was a selfish player, and wanted the ball, and when he didn't get it, he refused to play the final seconds of a playoff game. I think the other season, he just choked b/c of migraines of some BS.
Jordan was the leader of the team, and somehow, he got Pippen and Rodman to play with him, two players who were notoriously bad at playing with other people.
I have no doubt in my mind having seen both Kobe and MJ play that MJ is and always will be superior to Kobe.
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Without trying to completely hijack this thread, as the voice of the Heat on this forum I feel compelled to clear that statement up.
You cant say the lack of an inside presence was the reason the heat never won a ring before shaq got here. All those years when they had a championship team in the 90s and couldnt make it out of the east they had Zo. Zo was a multiple Defensive player of the year and in the top 5 in scoring of the league at the time so that argument is moot.
Again, before shaq when the team was pretty pathetic for a few years, a lotto pick at number 5 brought D-Wade. The heat made it to the playoffs that year and were taking down in a game 7. The next year shaq got there, they, lost in a game 7 in the East finals.
The next year shaqs numbers were dramatically down in all categories mainly GPs. Was shaq the missing peice? no. The year they were one game away from the finals, and the next year they won they had a completely re hauled roster. Riles got allot of flack when he added J will, Twan. Po Z and Payton. The missing piece of the puzzle was a vet point guard, SF, and a stronger bench.
Not saying shaq didnt have a role, but he was not the missing piece. It also didnt hurt that Wade averaged 34 a game in the finals, and over 42 at home in those three games.
.....and im spent
fair enough.
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Yeah, removing Kobe's 1st few years closes the gap a bit. It's kind of hard to do traditional statistical comparisons across generations.
For example, in 1987 when MJ averaged 37.1 ppg, the league average was 109 ppg and the worst offensive team in the NBA averaged 103.
In Kobe's best scoring season (2006), he averaged 35.4 ppg, the league average was 97 ppg, and their was only 1 team that averaged over 103.
With that said, I find it nearly impossibe to compare their stats at face value. Had Kobe played in the mid-80's at a faster pace with less micro-managing by the coaches, I think he would have comparable stats to MJ's. Heck, maybe he would have a 100 point game on his resume. Similarly, if MJ's prime had come during this generation, he might not average so many points.
I don't have time to research the per possession breakdowns and efficiency rankings, but I think the gap closes pretty significantly when you take offensive pace into account.
PS- I love this type of discussion. I'm an NBA junky. Thanks for posting this, Terry.
If you ever feel like doing that go for it and let us know how it comes out. It should be interesting to see how things change. I'd especially like to see it broken down by possession since that might be the most accurate way of comparing their stats. Still, even if you consider those I don't think Kobe will come out favorably since Jordan holds the advantage in not only per game average but per minute.
Jordan's per minute stats as I saw them are:
.1619 RPM, .1384 APM, .0627 SPM, .0209 BPM, .0713 TOPM, .0679 PFPM, .7859 PPM.
Kobe's per minute stats (without considering his 1st three seasons) are:
.1490 RPM, .1328 APM, .0425 SPM, .0149 BPM, .0798 TOPM, .0718 PFPM, .7114 PPM.
If I took out the years of MJ's comeback, a perfectly reasonable thing to do since Kobe hasn't played his declining years (which will lower his averages a bit), the gap in stats would again become greater no matter what time frame we broke them down under. With nearly a 2 PPG and 5% FG% difference I think Kobe would have a lot of ground to make up. Plus, you have to consider that for much of their career they played under the same coach with virtually the same 'triangle offense' which doesn't bode well for Kobe's case.
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Kobe Bryant vs. Michael Jordan .... who do you take?
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