When is a deficit too much with endurance training?

[Naive]

I have a question that's been on my mind. It's triggered by posts of "I'm training for a 10K, 5K, pick your distance and I want to lose fat, too..." The common sense answer is pick your goal, don't do both. So that you're doing one or the other.

But the other side of the equation I see well-conditioned athletes (pro's and recreational) that have an off-season period where it's about base-building endurance and this would be a time to look at fatloss and/or muscle building and then there's the race season where training is re-focused to peak and nutrition is NOT focused on fatloss. So I think you can lose fat while also having an endurance focus.

For example, my conditioning is such that I can run 15 miles per week and it's moderate, I recover, my heart rate doesn't go up to intense levels, etc... With this kind of cardio + 2x/week weights + a 10-20% deficit, I think I can lose weight. Also assuming that protein is at 1g/LBM, Fats are sufficient, fish oils taken, etc. And refeeds are done as necessary as are diet breaks.

However, at what point does this equation not work anymore? Assuming that as mileage goes up, so does cals because I'm calculating a percentage deficit, not saying, "I'm going to eat 1500 cals a day regardless of my mileage."

Currently, I am just building my endurance back and toying with the idea of training for a full-marathon in May.

[jbb]

I think a deficit is too much when you aren't recovering from your workouts. As long as you are recovering and your resting(waking) heart rate isn't going up, then you should be okay. Don't expect to get a whole lot stronger or faster on a deficit, but you can put in the miles and build an endurance base.

I also recommend eating around your workouts. Especially make sure that you eat well for post-exercise recovery, which means eating a good mix of protein and carbs right after your workout. You also want to have some carbs a couple of hours before your workout to make sure that you are fueled for it. But on your rest days (or easy days) you can eat a lot less, maybe even try an intermittent fast once or twice a week. Different things work for different people, so try some things and see what works for you.

[tattooed phat man]

Originally Posted by Naive

Currently, I am just building my endurance back and toying with the idea of training for a full-marathon in May.

It's a long way from 15 miles per week to running a marathon well. I've seen it done with 30 total miles of running in the 6 months leading up to the race, but he was tough, athletic, young, coming off a competitive swim season and underachieved his marathon potential by at least an hour. For all but a few gifted people, running a marathon anywhere near your potential requires putting other physical goals on hold. You can probably maintain, but making progress on strength or fat loss will likely happen at the expense of your marathon effort. I don't know at what point the calorie deficit becomes a problem, but, for me at least, running well nourished is a hell of a lot more fun. If you're going to put a lot of work into something as self-selected and challenging as a marathon, enjoy it.

[misstenacity]

Originally Posted by jbb

I think a deficit is too much when you aren't recovering from your workouts. As long as you are recovering and your resting(waking) heart rate isn't going up, then you should be okay. Don't expect to get a whole lot stronger or faster on a deficit, but you can put in the miles and build an endurance base.

I also recommend eating around your workouts. Especially make sure that you eat well for post-exercise recovery, which means eating a good mix of protein and carbs right after your workout. You also want to have some carbs a couple of hours before your workout to make sure that you are fueled for it. But on your rest days (or easy days) you can eat a lot less, maybe even try an intermittent fast once or twice a week. Different things work for different people, so try some things and see what works for you.

Great info in here, especially the point about "you won't get stronger/faster, but putting in miles is good".

However, the pre/during/post workout nutrition is good advice but not nearly as critical as it is when tweaking performance. Don't freak out if you miss a post workout meal (or pre, for that matter) - but keep counting calories and monitoring resting HR.

Good luck!

[misstenacity]

Originally Posted by tattooed phat man

For all but a few gifted people, running a marathon anywhere near your potential requires putting other physical goals on hold. You can probably maintain, but making progress on strength or fat loss will likely happen at the expense of your marathon effort.

I'd further qualify that to say its true for EVERYONE, not just the non-gifted.

A long time runner friend of mine told me that training for one's peak marathon takes a bare minimum of 2 years, and that's after building a good base, which itself takes several years or more. Those 2 years are spent training for one's best 10K, followed by the marathon training itself, and be prepared to spend 20+ hours weekly on it. Not all that is running, of course, but the larger "training" aspects, including X-train, stretch, etc.

Whew!

[Espi]

Wow.. it's hard to put this in perspective with cycling. Running is totally out of my league but long-distance cycling was a major pass-time of mine. Hmm well, at the peak of the season I'd just routinely cycle over 10hrs a week to go places, plus weekend rides of 6+ hrs as well as 3 spinning sessions.. hmm that's like 20hrs/week as well.. it just never seemed as much because of the huge component of functional rides as well as 'fun rides'.. never saw it as 'training' hours.

To put things in perspective, a good friend of mine had such an incredible endurance base in both running, cycling, skating as well as rowing, that he could just decide to enter a marathon on a whim and not do badly at all. He just spent nearly every day doing at least one of these sports & used his bicycle for transportation.
I guess he also didn't consider his 20+ hours of endurance sports as 'training' but just as fun...

[Naive]

Originally Posted by jbb

I think a deficit is too much when you aren't recovering from your workouts. As long as you are recovering and your resting(waking) heart rate isn't going up, then you should be okay. Don't expect to get a whole lot stronger or faster on a deficit, but you can put in the miles and build an endurance base.

I also recommend eating around your workouts. Especially make sure that you eat well for post-exercise recovery, which means eating a good mix of protein and carbs right after your workout. You also want to have some carbs a couple of hours before your workout to make sure that you are fueled for it. But on your rest days (or easy days) you can eat a lot less, maybe even try an intermittent fast once or twice a week. Different things work for different people, so try some things and see what works for you.

Good point, I think too that rest days can be used for deficit. I also know that I'll have to monitor my caloric intake closely since I don't want to get trapped into thinking that I can eat as much as I want and not gain weight because "I'm running a lot."

Originally Posted by tattooed phat man

It's a long way from 15 miles per week to running a marathon well. I've seen it done with 30 total miles of running in the 6 months leading up to the race, but he was tough, athletic, young, coming off a competitive swim season and underachieved his marathon potential by at least an hour. For all but a few gifted people, running a marathon anywhere near your potential requires putting other physical goals on hold. You can probably maintain, but making progress on strength or fat loss will likely happen at the expense of your marathon effort. I don't know at what point the calorie deficit becomes a problem, but, for me at least, running well nourished is a hell of a lot more fun. If you're going to put a lot of work into something as self-selected and challenging as a marathon, enjoy it.

I totally plan on enjoying it and for my first marathon, I want to do my best but also set realistic goals. Doing it in 4 hrs would be great, I'm not trying to Boston qualify!

Originally Posted by misstenacity

Great info in here, especially the point about "you won't get stronger/faster, but putting in miles is good".

However, the pre/during/post workout nutrition is good advice but not nearly as critical as it is when tweaking performance. Don't freak out if you miss a post workout meal (or pre, for that matter) - but keep counting calories and monitoring resting HR.

Good luck!

Thanks!

Originally Posted by misstenacity

I'd further qualify that to say its true for EVERYONE, not just the non-gifted.

A long time runner friend of mine told me that training for one's peak marathon takes a bare minimum of 2 years, and that's after building a good base, which itself takes several years or more. Those 2 years are spent training for one's best 10K, followed by the marathon training itself, and be prepared to spend 20+ hours weekly on it. Not all that is running, of course, but the larger "training" aspects, including X-train, stretch, etc.

Whew!

Yes and for me, the marathon is something I would LOVE to cross off my "bucket list" because I do love pushing myself. And after a couple of half-marathons, this seemed like the logical next step.

I foresee that in the new year, I will reach a point where it is sooo obvious that my caloric intake aren't sufficient for my recovery.

Thanks all for the helpful input.

[GinnyLou]

Great question and lots of good advice in this thread.