hello fellow forum runners. I have come a long way with fat loss, down nearly 80 pounds from my heaviest. I have some competitive goals this year for the first time in running. I am 5' 6.5" and around 149-150 now. body fat around 26%. I am 7 weeks into a 12 week 5k training plan from "run less run faster" the furman people. I am doing really well with training, and in the first 6 weeks or so, was steadily losing fat. but now my appetite seems really huge, and I have had a hard time staying in a deficit this week. my eating by the way is 80-90 percent whole foods most of the time. two times eating out in 7 weeks, so very little junk.
are fat loss and competitive running goals mutually exclusive? my target 5k is the first week of march. furman running camp is middle may. target marathon is late november (want to qualify for boston 4 flat).
should I scale back the 5k training so I can diet harder and go into may running camp closer to an optimal running weight? (guessing 140 ish 23-24% body fat would be better?) however the fitness I am building right now is great, and I know it will help me for marathon season.
I'm not a seasoned runner by any stretch but I am a girl who loves to run so I've researched the fat loss vs running fast debate. The consensus seems to be that you should focus on fat loss only during a base building period when your intensity isn't high. However, if you're training hard and for a PR then in order to have optimal performance, eating at maintenance is necessary. It seems like we can't have our cake and eat it too. It's either fat loss or train to run faster.
naive, thanks so much for your reply. I suspected as much. I am taking a break this week from dieting but my current training program isn't as important as the one I start in may. so I am ok with some performance loss right now. trying to stay uninjured!
naive, thanks so much for your reply. I suspected as much. I am taking a break this week from dieting but my current training program isn't as important as the one I start in may. so I am ok with some performance loss right now. trying to stay uninjured!
Good luck! I thought I was great at staying injury free...until a few weeks ago. Now I've had to pull out my Feb. 15th race.
I would concur. When you are running, especially competitively, then I would steer clear of a calorie deficit. I think if the goal is fat loss, then running can support that. If the goal is running well, then you need for your diet to support that goal. During my triathlon season, it's a struggle for me to eat enough to keep up with the calorie burn, so I don't ever try to lose weight in the summer. Now, not to toot my own horn, but a Half Ironman training plan probably burns more calories than a 5K plan. If I was in your situation, I would really consider timing your nutrition around your runs, and maybe on off days from running you can go into a bit of a deficit. But then you get into trying to support 2 goals that might not work together, as well as not fully focusing on recovery.
So after all that, I'd say pick your goal, and work towards that specific goal. Good luck!!!
E
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"It's what you've got inside that matters. The details and technological things will take you only so far. You still have to pedal the bike. Some people are always looking for the magic secret. There's no secret. Just bust your ass." -Dave Zabriskie
thanks emartin! 5k plan is just to build speed for my A race, which is my boston qualifier marathon in november. I am ok with performance suffering in 5k season. but by the time that mileage starts to crank for the nov marathon, sometime june/july, I truly want to be in maintenance, because I know that I can't be in a deficit during marathon season.
congrats on your half iron! I have done an olympic triathlon and around 20 sprints. never a half ironman, not yet anyway!!! I really prefer running these days, and use swimming as my 2 days of crosstraining.
I hope I can sustain a bit of a deficit and be closer to an ideal running weight for me by late spring early summer. it will make qualifying so much easier if I can get leaner!
Jennifer Sygo, National Post
Published: Tuesday, February 03, 2009
Picture it: A thirtysomething woman is interested in training for a
triathlon, maybe even one as gruelling as the half- or full-Ironman. To
get herself into top shape, she decides to lose a few pounds, not only to
reduce the stress on her joints and potentially lower her risk of injury,
but also to shave valuable seconds or minutes off of her training and race
times (and hey, it doesn't hurt to look lean and mean in those skimpy
running bras). So despite the higher energy needs that come with more
intense training, she decides to trim her caloric intake just a little,
perhaps by cutting excess carbs such as pasta, bread and cereal. Her
intentions, she feels, are good, so much so that she might even see a
dietitian or other nutrition professional to help her lose the weight.
As a sport dietitian, I routinely work with female athletes of all shapes
and sizes, and some of them inevitably have eating issues, which can be
severe and ultimately life-threatening. But below the layer of the most
severe, clinically diagnosable eating disorders (including anorexia and
bulimia nervosa), there is another, much larger percentage of female
athletes whose dietary habits are putting them at risk, not only in terms
of their performance, but also when it comes to their health - and in many
cases, even the athletes themselves don't realize it.
The first week of February marks National Eating Disorders Awareness Week,
and while the topic of eating disorders is a vast one, the issue of female
athletes undereating is one that I feel is particularly worthy of some
discussion because it falls so far under the radar of many people.
ENERGY DEFICITS: NOT JUST ABOUT OIL AND GAS ANY MORE
So what happens, physically, when an athlete undereats? Let's take a
closer look. If an average female in her thirties needs to consume, say,
1,800 calories per day to maintain her weight, then it makes sense that an
active female would need more. How much more? Well, that depends whether
we're talking about a casual gym-goer who engages in three one-hour,
moderate intensity workouts per week, then you might tack on an additional
2,100 calories over the week (based on 700 calories burned per workout),
averaging out to an extra 300 calories per day.
But if that athlete is engaging in more intense athletic training - let's
say one or even two workouts per day, six days per week, with some lasting
several hours - then she could require up to 7,000-10,000 (or more)
additional calories per week, just to break even. That translates to an
extra 1,000 calories or more per day - quite a lot if you've been used to
watching every bite. On top of that, as an athlete becomes stronger and
adds more muscle mass, her metabolism increases - in other words, she
actually burns more energy at rest. So, in addition to their energy output
from training, these athletes also need to consume extra calories just to
conserve the lean muscle that they've worked so hard to build.
This is the theory, anyway. But, in my experience, few female athletes
actually eat this much. Many eat less, and while they may not be
intentionally dieting or restricting, it is not uncommon to see a
high-level female athlete eating between 1,800 and 2,500 calories per day
- simply not enough when their needs are 3,000 calories or more.
Most of the female athletes I've worked with don't even realize they are
undereating - they are just going with what social norms dictate women
should do to keep their weight in check, but these dietary habits can come
with unexpected and potentially severe consequences.
THE DANGERS OF NOT EATING ENOUGH
Initially, when an athlete undereats, the impact tends to be on
performance: She might feel more fatigued - either during training or
throughout the day - but in time, issues with sleep, injuries, illness or
burnout can start to arise. If an energy deficit persists for a prolonged
time, the result can be irregular menstrual periods and a loss of bone
health, making the athlete not only prone to short-term injuries like
stress fractures, but also long-term issues like osteoporosis. But perhaps
most surprisingly, many of these athletes actually find it harder to lose
the weight that they are trying so hard to control, especially when it
comes to those persistent few pounds around the middle.
But there is little research in this area (though the University of
Toronto has embarked on an ambitious project known as REFUEL, examining
the effect that gradually increasing women's energy intakes to meet their
needs has on body composition, menstrual status, and bone health). One
explanation is that a lack of fuel means a loss of muscle (remember,
muscle is expensive to keep around), which means a slower metabolism. It
is also possible that hormonal disruptions that resulting from what is
effectively long-term starvation favour fat storage.
THE BOTTOM LINE
Regardless of the mechanism, there is reason for hope: Evidence shows that
by eating more (in other words, actually meeting their energy needs),
athletes can perform better, maintain stronger bones, a better hormonal
balance and actually become leaner in the long run.
If you think undereating is an issue for you or an athlete you work with,
contact a dietitian who specializes in sports nutrition (visit
dietitians.ca/find for more information).
-Jennifer Sygo is a dietitian in private practice at Cleveland Clinic
Canada (clevelandcliniccanada.com), which offers executive physicals,
prevention and wellness counselling and personal health care management in
Toronto.
I just found this site and thread, but hopefully I can help. I've been a long distance runner for 25 years and have been coaching club runners for about 10 years and helping many of them qualify for Boston (>95% success rate).
The main point I want to make is that it is certainly possible to train for a marathon and lose weight at the same time. Last weekend I had a female runner run her second marathon 45 minutes faster than her first in November of 07. She needed 3:45:59 and ran 3:39 and change. I first met her in August and she dropped 10 lbs. during her training although she put back on 1-2 during her taper.
The problem with many runners is that they overestimate the calories they burn and underestimate the calories they eat. They think that if they are training for a marathon they can eat anything they want and eat too many calories, especially carbohydrates. Yes you need carbohydrates to keep your muscle glycogen stores full, but runners in the 4 hour range aren't usually running that many miles or that many intense miles to burn as many carbohydrates as they think. So they tend to overeat carbs and don't get enough protein and they are scared to death of fat.
The problem with eating more carbs than you need is that when you eat carbs, insulin, the storage hormone, is called on to do something with those carbs. If your muscles are low on glycogen then it will store the carbs in your muscles. If your muscles are full of glycogen then the excess carbs are stored as fat. So that is where a subject called nutrient timing comes into play.
The best time to eat carbs, especially simple carbs, is right after you exercise with the first 15-30 minutes being optimal and decreasing up to about 2 hours. At that time your muscles are ready to soak up those carbs. However, if you go for a 4 mile run that doesn't give you liscence to eat 400 calories of carbs. You didn't burn that many! The other time to get those carbs is a carb drink like Gatorade 10-15 minutes before your longer runs (about an hour or more) and track workouts and 6-8 ozs. every 15 minutes. Breakfast may also be a good time to get some whole grain/low GI carbs, especially if your legs are feeling a bit dead. The rest of the time your carbs should come from vegetables and fruit.
Although I can't give you an exact macronutrient breakdown, something on the order of 50-55% carbohydrate, 25-30% protein, and 20-25% fat should work. Most runners, especially women, don't eat enough protein. Besides helping keep you from losing muscle which is easy to do when running long distances, it also helps keep down food cravings and has a higher TEF (Thermal Effect of Feeding). I.E. it costs some of those calories to process the protein, not as many for carbs and none for fat. So the first thing you have to do is figure what your maintenance requiremens are and then cut if by a few hunderd/day. There are many sites on the web that can help you figure that out.
The important thing is to really know how much you are eating and until you have a handle on it I highly recommend measuring and weighing your food. Here is a link to the reason why. http://www.burnthefatblog.com/archiv..._secret_vi.php A good site to use to track your diet, at least until you know what you are doing is Fitday.com. It also helps you figure out your maintenance calories.
Good luck and post back if you have any questions.
bobjdan, thanks so much for your post! my macros are closer to 40/30/30 because I am still in 5k season, but they get closer to 50/25/25 in marathon season. I am a freak about nutrient timing, and I always have a prerun shake of 110 cal 15 carb 15 protein, and a post workout something or another that has carb and protein. I love to lift, so I am not like most women runners who are shy of protein or lifting. I track in the daily plate and most days get at least 140grams.
I have done 3 marathons, one at 208 pounds, one around 180ish and the most recent around 175. for my first two marathons, I lost minimal weight because I was doing exactly what you said--thinking I could eat the house because I ran long. the last one I did better with fueling but still didnt lose a ton of scale weight, but certainly did some body recomposition.
am thinking of bay state in october, and I am really looking forward to it. running is so much easier in the body I have today. I can't believe how much my fitness is improving now that it is easier to run hard track workouts and tempo runs.
post your website, I would like to check it out. thanks again.
Hi. You seem really in-the-know, so I thought I would ask you my nagging question. I am 38, female, 5'3" and range from 108 to 114 pounds--lately more days in the 111-114 range. I have run the Philadelphia Marathon in November and I am running the New Jersey Marathon in May. I hope to qualify for Boston there. My times are very close. (I take my half marathon times, double them and add 10 minutes).
I am in constant battle with myself and how many calories a day I should be eating. I am on my feet all day as a teacher, and I train at night and on weekends. I eat VERY healthy. An average day would be: Breakfast: 2 slices of whole grain toast, with 2 tbsp of peanut butter, a small apple or orange and coffee. Snack:1/2 cup yogurt, 1/4 cup raisins and 1/4 cup granola. Lunch: Stouffers Meal such as Lasagna and a piece of fruit. Snack before workout: 6 fig newtons and a piece of fruit Dinner: Lots of veggies (the majority of what is on my plate), a bowl of light soup and maybe a sweet potato.
So here is my nagging question. I do not know if it is better to a) eat a consistant number of calories per day, (lately I have been around 2100) b)more calories on days I run longer or c)more calories the day BEFORE a long run to fuel me. For example, I have a tendancy to think I need to eat less on my day off of running (Friday) but then I think my fuel tank is a little low on Sat. morning.
Please help. I also don't know if my calories are way out of wack. I have been gaining weight lately....I used to weigh 108 on most days on the scale. I HAVE been doing "a bit" of strength training lately, but not enough to gain that much. *sigh*. I am so confused.
I am in constant battle with myself and how many calories a day I should be eating. I am on my feet all day as a teacher, and I train at night and on weekends. For example, I have a tendancy to think I need to eat less on my day off of running (Friday) but then I think my fuel tank is a little low on Sat. morning. .
hey val. one of the things that helped me a lot with this issue is my gowearfit.com gadget. it is like a body bugg, and now it has software to track your calories too. being on your feet all day, you might be surprised at your burn rate just from your job. add marathon training on top of that, and your burn might get substantial at times. you didnt mention your mileage, but if you run 6 days a week, your burn might be very high.
as for the saturday long runs, yeah, fridays are not the day to cut calories. I eat at maintenance on fridays, and tend to shift my macros a little closer to 50-55 percent carbs just to top off the glycogen tank so I am prepared to run long on saturday. go check out this same thread by me in the fat loss troubleshoot section--powermanDL wrote a great article on fat loss and running.
as far as the slow weight gain, not sure what is going on. many people on the forum put down calipers as a way to test body fat, but I have found that monthly calipers with an exercise physiologist who is experienced in this method, and utilizing the same person everytime, has been INVALUABLE to me during training, to determine how much of my scale weight is fat versus lean.
bottom line, marathon training is a huge stress to the body. if you are not adequately recovering, getting adequate sleep, managing stress, eating enough on recovery days and enough nutrient dense food, your body may not let go of those couple of pounds that you MIGHT have gained. I said might, because marathon training itself causes a lot of fluid retention.
I learned the hard way that trying to focus on any kind of deficit while training hard is NOT the way to go.
track your intake in something like fitday.com or thedailyplate.com , log your exercise and see if they match over the course of a couple of weeks. the gowearfit gadget would really help you if it is in your budget. happy running! let us know how it goes.
Fat Loss and competitive running
Now I've had to pull out my Feb. 15th race.
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