So I have been holding my tongue on the situation mostly because I don't think it is any of my business. However, after my 100th email proclaiming that I "make a stand" on the subject I thought, "hey, why not" .
You know in high school when two people would get into a fight? Right in the middle of a common's area, right in front of everyone they "threw down" and put on a show for the school to see? Yeah this isn't about the fight.
This is about the people after the fight.
You know the people that would walk around who all of a sudden had an opinion on a situation they don't know? That all of a sudden are best friends with the two dudes that threw down? That had one conversation with one of the guys once at a locker two years earlier and then says they used to be friends with the person?
This is what this whole thing is reminding me of.
Here are the facts.
1-Lyle calls out Alwyn for using his material without permission or credit.
2-Alwyn admitted that Lyle's work was not credited and that he used it and is making advances to either fix it or rectify the situation with Lyle.
3-Lyle has yet to speak on how he feels about Alwyn's statement.
Everything else that everyone is talking is just speculation, rumors, or venting that has nothing to do with this actual situation but instead years of built up issues with "guru worship" and promotion.
While I can understand the frustration that you might have the lynch mob mentality and drama of it all is becoming very 2nd grade and is again based off of speculation and not facts.
Only a few people even know either parties or the situations at hand enough to half speak on it and I don't think 1 person posting here has talked to Lyle personally since Alwyn's response to the situation.
This is not a situation for people of the internet to decide. This is a personal situation between two people that they should be solving and I feel that they will come to a resolution about.
As for the argument of product....
If anyone actually thinks that Warp Speed sold because of a chapter on Fat Mobilization then you don't know a lot of people.
That is not a knock at Lyle's work either. He is brilliant and should get credited for such work but this situation does not affect the quality of the product being discussed.
As for the integrity issue, again there has not been a final say from Lyle on the issue at hand on how he feels on this situation. Alwyn's email may be a starting point to further talks, it may be good enough for him, it may mean shit and that is that. It could be that Lyle truly believes it was an accident or error. That worst case Alwyn just got sloppy and that is where you should start placing of judgment.
However, this is hardly a case to judge a entire man's career on when there isn't even an answer from the only person this situation should really be affecting.
This is obviously a case of the straw breaking the camels back and issue at hand with products, who is getting recognition, who isn't, etc.
It is washing over into this situation.
Also, this should not be seen as me believing in stealing someones work, this is just simply a case of I want to hear word from the actual people involved.
Everything else that everyone is talking is just speculation, rumors, or venting that has nothing to do with this actual situation but instead years of built up issues with "guru worship" and promotion.
In part. I'll say that I know more than what's commonly out there, but it's not really my business to go trotting it out, which is why I haven't (yet).
But it's almost entirely public record on BR, if anyone cares to look for it.
Then again, I forget that my exposure to information of that nature is more than most, so it tends to color my outlook on things and is why I tend to have "WTF" moments when people aren't convinced.
There are more pieces to this puzzle.
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If anyone actually thinks that Warp Speed sold because of a chapter on Fat Mobilization then you don't know a lot of people.
Screw it, I'm hopped up and I want to address this part too.
I've looked through WSFL, and I wasn't impressed. It's a cliff-notes version of (obviously) UD2, with one of the stubborn fat protocols thrown in (and renamed, uncredited, of course!) along with some circuit work. The 90% of the book is pre-made meal plans.
What is present here that isn't in Alwyn's other works? What's present here that somebody who doesn't own other fat-loss books is missing?
You may not think that the product-pushing is cogent here, but I think its' the crux of the issue.
WSFL was a money-grab, point blank. The information is presented in other products that Alwyn himself has put out, let alone the far superior stuff that Lyle's already written. The only things here that weren't from Lyle were Alwyn's circuits and Mike's meal plans.
Just because it worked doesn't mean it was a good product.
The fact that the majority of the content is ripped from somebody else is the core issue. Why was that done?
Because Alwyn wanted another income stream. As mentioned, you could buy UD2 and the stubborn fat solution in hardcopy for less than this ebook cost.
You may find it irrelevant, but I find this greed and hawking of sub-par products to get more e-fame and Get Rich to be the core of the whole matter.
It breeds this crap.
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*aolife posted before this got up*
Christ people...stop. Just stop.
If you want someone to contribute differently then lead by example. If the host of the site asks to change the tone of the post then the member does or the site host chooses an appropriate reaction.
I'm not sure it would be worth Lyle's trouble to sue. Even if he won, what would he win? How much time, money, and ass pain would it be to prove in court?
Personally I trust Matt when he says that he has the material and backs up Lyle's claims. I trust Lyle not to make this sort of accusation without it being pretty darn close to true. He might be on the excitable side, but he's done nothing to make me think he'd just boldface lie about this (and bring his evil henchman Matt along with him). It's too public and damning to one side or the other.
If it is as clear cut as it has been represented, he could move for judgment on the pleadings or summary judgment in fairly short order. It is only if it is not quite as clear cut that it would be major ass pain.
If it is as clear cut as it has been represented, he could move for judgment on the pleadings or summary judgment in fairly short order. It is only if it is not quite as clear cut that it would be major ass pain.
Everyone has their opinions, but I don't think Lyle was really going for legal action blah blah blah. IMO (re-enforcing Leigh's statement about people that don't know anything making comments) Lyle wanted to expose Alwyn and Alwyn to take a hit for doing what he did. He got what he wanted and I don't think he he was wrong for doing it. It's calling the sky blue. You can say that it's not, but it is and that's, that. You can look at this very thread and see examples of people denying any wrong doing even when they admit that they didn't look at the evidence. Alwyn is too entrenched as a guru-idol for Lyle to do anything about his situation without presenting overwhelming evidence publicly. It doesn't change my opinion of Alwyn as a trainer. It re-enforced what I already believed about his marketing practices\materials.
Technically plagiarism doesn't have to damage sales of an existing product. For example, a friend of mine in the publishing business told me about a friend of his who wrote a history book on Irish Americans or something obscure like that, and a text book plagiarized his stuff for a chapter. He got close to $2 mil in damages when he sued them. It doesn't have to show actual damages.
Speaking of damages, how many sales has Lyle lost because of Alwyn. Somehow I suspect it is close to zero.
I'm not sure I understand the significance of this, accurate or not. Could you please clarify?
Also, Alwyn being the marketing machine that he is, probably generates more sales than Lyle. This being the case, had Alwyn properly referenced where the fat metabolism information came from, it could have very easily prompted people to look into Lyle's work who otherwise wouldn't have.
But again, these are all semantics that nobody really knows... semantics that make little to no difference on the *real* issue here.
Lyle's post raises a few questions for me actually. He talks about their falling out... So is he saying that he has some sort of axe to grind?
Also, quite a few people (including myself) have wondered why Lyle gave blanket permission without actually reading it first, but apparently he did read it, and even has a copy of it. Maybe he didn't give Alwyn specific permission for WSFL, but it's obvious that there is more to this story than what we're getting on these discussions.
If he had so many problems with it then, why did he go visit Alwyn in CA later? What was this falling out all about? (Sorry to be so nosy, but I just don't have sufficient information)
Obviously Alwyn shouldn't have left out his attribution from WSFL, but whatever is going on, it's obvious there is some back story. I feel like I'm watching an episode of Jerry Springer where some bitter ex is airing dirty laundry.
My question for Lyle is this... What is the ultimate goal with all this? How far does he want to go? Does he want Alwyn to stop selling WS, does he want a cut of the action, does he want Alwyn to aplogize (again), or does he simply want to destroy Alwyn completely?
I have nothing against Lyle whatsoever, but since I don't have the privilege of knowing him, I don't really understand his motives, and that would help me get my brain around this whole situation.
Lyle's post raises a few questions for me actually. He talks about their falling out... So is he saying that he has some sort of axe to grind?
Also, quite a few people (including myself) have wondered why Lyle gave blanket permission without actually reading it first, but apparently he did read it, and even has a copy of it. Maybe he didn't give Alwyn specific permission for WSFL, but it's obvious that there is more to this story than what we're getting on these discussions.
If he had so many problems with it then, why did he go visit Alwyn in CA later? What was this falling out all about? (Sorry to be so nosy, but I just don't have sufficient information)
Based on what Lyle's said, it's because Alwyn told him to stop contacting him because Lyle was pointing out errors in his shaky interpretation of research in order to hawk products.
Quote:
Obviously Alwyn shouldn't have left out his attribution from WSFL, but whatever is going on, it's obvious there is some back story. I feel like I'm watching an episode of Jerry Springer where some bitter ex is airing dirty laundry.
That's about the gist of it, yes. This has been an on-going thing, with people (not just Alwyn) pirating Lyle w/o bothering to credit him.
Of course any time he brings it up, he and anyone that backs him is labeled a "hater" and we go back to throwing money at the gurus that are laughing at their customers all the way to the bank.
Funny how the ones trying to keep some integrity in the industry are "bad" and "little people". I like how that works.
EDIT: I know you didn't say this, JP, but some have been implicating or outright saying that Lyle and his "posse" are just being petty. Which is ridiculous.
Quote:
My question for Lyle is this... What is the ultimate goal with all this? How far does he want to go? Does he want Alwyn to stop selling WS, does he want a cut of the action, does he want Alwyn to aplogize (again), or does he simply want to destroy Alwyn completely?
I have nothing against Lyle whatsoever, but since I don't have the privilege of knowing him, I don't really understand his motives, and that would help me get my brain around this whole situation.
Seems to be a simple matter of letting everyone know what really goes on with all the guru product-pushing.
Despite how "unprofessional" or whatever the line is this may be, it boils down to this:
Somebody's gotta say it, cause nobody else will.
It's a simple thing: if people stop doing shady things to make a quick buck, then the "hating" will stop too. Again, we blame the people trying to keep integrity in the industry as the bad guys, when the freakin' thieves are being looked on with a higher standard.
You see it in how a lot of people are reacting. "I'm not saying Alwyn's right, but...."
"I'm not saying black people are bad, but...."
See where that goes?
I think that's just as valid a reason as any, no matter how many people want to bitch and moan about bitterness, haters, or any other red herring argument that you'd care to throw out.
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I'm having a hard time visualizing how Lyle's motives are relevant to the situation. Even if he's using his power for evil...how does that change the situation? Alwyn still copied someone else's work, repackaged it at least once, and sold it for a premium at least once. At best you could argue that he thought he had permission to do this, assuming that he gave credit where it was due...which he didn't.
It hurts my feelings that any part of it occurred. If I fucked up doing my job then I could get my pee pee smacked...same as everyone else (I assume). If Alwyn (effectively) steals from another professional, profits from repackaging old material that he's already sold, doesn't take time to proofread\correct mistakes to make a professional product, and markets from a community that comes right out and says that they don't read the material that they're endorsing...then it's Lyle's fault because his motivations for calling them out on this might be in question?
I don't think Lyle was referencing this particular piece in regards to NROL, but rather the appearance of the SFP 1.0 protocol. I, like Racer Bill, did not come across it in NROL. However, there is a paragraph on the protocol in NROL4W on page 27 and this is probably the New Rules work that was meant. It is section right after the paragraph that states:
"Now, if you actually enjoy endurance exercise, and would miss it if you couldn't do any, we don't want to discourage you from that. But Alwyn has come up with a unique way of making it more effective."
The protocol is then mentioned with no credit to Lyle or calling it by the name Stubborn Fat protocol.
Reply by Lou Schuler:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou Schuler
This was my mistake. When Alwyn first told me about the fat-loss protocol, I mistakently thought he had come up with it, and wrote it up to suggest just that. He later told me he had gotten the idea from Lyle.
I can't say for sure, but I believe that I'd already written a draft of Chapter 3 when I learned this, although the rest of the book was far from finished.
My memory is imperfect, but I know I had the intention of giving credit to Lyle. In fact, when all this became controversial recently, I was surprised to realize that I hadn't. Somehow I'd conflated the memory of intending to give credit with a memory of actually putting a citation into the manuscript. If you look at the notes in the back of the book, you can see I'm not exactly shy about giving credit where it's due.
So it was my mistake, and I apologize for it.
But when you talk about sticking it in Chapter 3 & that you "mistakently thought he [Cosgrove] had come up with it", you were talking about NROL4W, not so? Then "He [Cosgrove] later told me he had gotten the idea from Lyle." Whenever "later" happened to be, it went uncredited in NROL4W.
But then, even later, Warp Speed Fat Loss: a new project which you had nothing to do with: SFP 1.0 reportedly shows up again, completely uncredited. Even if you were responsible for the uncredited appearance in the first book, you bore no responsibility whatsoever for its uncredited appearance in the second. That responsibility belonged to Cosgrove & Roussell.
P.S. I notice, however, that the NRFL4W mention seems to be a mention of Lyle's fat loss protocol (mistakenly attributed to Alwyn), not an actual verbatim quoting of what Lyle now calls SFP 1.0, which is what Lyle's blog reported happened. And his blog said it happened in the original NRFL, so... what page(s)?
Lyle's post raises a few questions for me actually. He talks about their falling out... So is he saying that he has some sort of axe to grind?
Perhaps among other things I think he is saying that even IF Alwyn felt he had permission from Lyle to do something in a project from a couple of years ago, Alwyn should have known that Lyle wouldn't re-extend that permission.
Quote:
Also, quite a few people (including myself) have wondered why Lyle gave blanket permission
I'm still wondering why people think Lyle gave permission. The email trail you posted contained ZERO incidences of Alwyn asking for permission and ZERO incidences of Lyle granting permission, for anything.
Unrelated but I think I'll have to replace "bargaining" with "questioning of motives" as stage 3 in the 5 stages of Guru Loss. After waiting 2 days for an example of bargaining, I don't think I'll get it.
I'm still wondering why people think Lyle gave permission. The email trail you posted contained ZERO incidences of Alwyn asking for permission and ZERO incidences of Lyle granting permission, for anything.
My comment on the permission is based on not only the email, but the fact that Lyle did receive a copy of the actual product, and then still continued his friendship with Alwyn. If it bugged him that much back when they were friends, why didn't he say something about it then? The falling out came much later, and suddenly it became a problem. If this is some personal issue between the two of them, it probably could have been solved pretty quickly and privately without doing damage to their careers.
I say both of their careers because obviously it does damage to Alwyn, but I don't think he realizes how much damage it does to his own. I know his schtick is to "not care" about success, but ultimately anyone who is producing some kind of material to sell needs to have customers who will buy it. This kind of negativity and public squabbling does have a negative effect on him as well. Maybe not on the 100 (or more) people who are his supporters, but the general public.
Here is where that is coming from. I have trained most of my competition in my city. So many of my former employees struck out on their own, most of the time taking MY clients with them, costing me thousands. They signed non-competes, but that didn't stop them from trying. Here's the rub... When I have gone after them all I did was sour the customers who were caught in the middle, and possibly scare off customers who witnessed some of the carnage. In the end, I spent valuable time I could have been creating new business by fighting over a few clients who I would never get back in the first place. I successfully blackballed a trainer, but I also did significant damage to myself for those who witnessed my unfiltered anger.
My policy is still on the books, and all my trainers are required to sign it, but I can tell you that I will never worry about or go after lost customers again. It's just not worth it. It may hurt them, but it hurts me worse, and it distracts me from my main mission. I was right, but it didn't really matter in the end. Not speaking necessarily for myself, but I would bet that a lot of people reading these discussions decide to avoid Lyle as well as Alwyn. I have some support for that theory, although very anecdotal.
My wife has not kept up with any of this (Erika from this board), and I haven't spoken with her about it all week. She decided to read up on everything last night and her initial reaction was, "who is that ass, Lyle? I'd never buy anything from someone that childish."
In a small community like the city I live in, if one person says something, 50 others are thinking it. If someone has something bad to say, they'll on average tell 13 people (Plummer's 1/13 rule, IHRSA). That's just in a local community. Now look at the thousands of people who are in this fitness community on the internet, stretching across multiple message boards... You can probably multiply those numbers by a factor of 1,000!
That is not to say that Lyle isn't right, but he's willing to "be right" at the expense of losing thousands of potential customers who don't know or care who Alwyn is and just see someone conducting a personal vendetta in a very ugly and public manner. It's his right to be like this if he feels he was genuinely wronged, but his recent course of action would have been very ill-advised by me personally. You don't deal with a skin cancer on your hand by lopping off your arm. That is my unqualified opinion anyway.
My comment on the permission is based on not only the email, but the fact that Lyle did receive a copy of the actual product, and then still continued his friendship with Alwyn.
Where did you find that Lyle received a copy of the first product in which Alwyn's edited version of Lyle's fat metabolism was published two years ago (apparently Real World Fat Loss)?
I guess it's possible, but I've seen nothing to indicate that he did.
As an un-biased observer I'm left without information because that forum thread is closed to non-members. I'm too lazy to register.
Here it is, posted on his "less polite" board 07-14-2008 at, 08:09 AM:
Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcd
I'm fairly sure I have a wiki page although I don't recall ever looking at it myself
and I agree 100% with lookcloser that Al wants to pretend this doesn't exist at all which is why he'll ignore it in his blog. because no matter how he plays it, HE fucked up and can't excuse it
his email claim is, of course, bullshit
even if I gave him permission to use a SUMMARY for RWFL that has no bearing on the new project
as well, cutting my text nearly word for work is not a SUMMARY by any normal definition.
the simple fact is that he and I haven't spoken since last year when we had our falling out, he knew better than to ask permission to use my work for warp speed because he knew I'd say no. not that what he used was a summary in the first place.
so he's trying to play the game of 'better to ask forgiveness than permission'
My comment on the permission is based on not only the email, but the fact that Lyle did receive a copy of the actual product, and then still continued his friendship with Alwyn. If it bugged him that much back when they were friends, why didn't he say something about it then?
I have a hard time believing that Lyle received a copy of Alwyn's RWFL copy and paste job and approved it.
As far as calling Lyle's action childish-- what is he supposed to do? Lyle said that Alwyn asked for permission to use the fat metabolism material again in YSFL and he refused. But Alwyn still used it!
Please hear me that I am not defending Alwyn, I think he was/is lazy in his publishing and I am not interested in buying/reading someone else's words...when I think they're his.
BUT the fact still remains that there's more than one way to skin a cat. Lyle chose one way and it will have reprocussions on him as well as Alwyn.
I have a hard time believing that Lyle received a copy of Alwyn's RWFL copy and paste job and approved it.
I guess this will have to be filed as a "he said/he said" scenario. The fact remains that long after that came out, Lyle did visit with Alwyn. If I am friends enough with someone to drive them to chemo I'd sure as hell be a good enough friend to say, "hey dude, I didn't like your summary of my work. It's too close to what I already said. Can you tweak it?"
Quote:
As far as calling Lyle's action childish-- what is he supposed to do? Lyle said that Alwyn asked for permission to use the fat metabolism material again in YSFL and he refused. But Alwyn still used it!
I never stated that he was childish.
The point that I keep reading over and over is that he wasn't refused because it wasn't requested. I don't see Alwyn backing down from his responsibility for that.
Mind you, I have nothing whatsoever against Lyle as a professional. He obviously has the respect of some pretty top people. Everything I read claims that Lyle is "brilliant" and other very complimentary things. It is only as a fellow professional that I advise against this kind of public lashing out. As I said in my analogy, it's like lopping off your entire arm to deal with a minor skin cancer on your hand.
Too late though I guess. The toothpaste is out of the tube.
I have a hard time believing that Lyle received a copy of Alwyn's RWFL copy and paste job and approved it.
As far as calling Lyle's action childish-- what is he supposed to do? Lyle said that Alwyn asked for permission to use the fat metabolism material again in YSFL and he refused. But Alwyn still used it!
Do you mean WSFL? (Warp Speed Fat Loss)? If so, when did Lyle say Alwyn asked permission to use it? Lyle said (on his "less polite" forum, the message I quote above a few posts) that, in his opinion, Alwyn didn't ask for permission b/c he knew he wouldn't get it, due to their falling out last year.
But I too have a hard time believing Lyle saw the RWFL copy & paste job & was okay with it. My impression has been that he assumed that Alwyn did as he said in the August 2006 email that he had done: summarized the chapter (in Alwyn's own words). He may have visited Alwyn & taken him to chemo completely unaware that Alwyn thought "summary" = "cut & paste job, with edits."
All that said -- yes, likely there will be repercussions for Lyle's future sales as well as for Alwyn's. On the other hand, maybe not. The toothpaste got squirted out of the tube on Lyle's blog, & other than that it's been a topic for discussion on this & other fitness forums, but that's about it. Otherwise, business seems to be going on pretty normally.
But I'll add that as a reader & consumer of some of these products, I consider plagiarism or copyright violations or whatever the legal definition of what Alywn did to be not just wrongful use of Lyle's material, but also a betrayal of the public's trust. Lyle wasn't the only person who experienced that as dishonesty. So I, for one, am glad that Lyle put it out there.
Seriously. It is a major turn-off to any potential customer to see childish pranks like this.
Uhh that wasnt created or posted by Lyle....
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