I would like to believe that Lisa, but due to the similarity of the texts, if your postulation were true, it would mean both Lyle and Alwyn plagiarized.
I would like to believe that Lisa, but due to the similarity of the texts, if your postulation were true, it would mean both Lyle and Alwyn plagiarized.
Bingo. Mike Roussell is a very smart guy and a doctoral student at Penn State. I'm surprised that he wouldn't be very careful of this.
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I purchased Turbulance Training last year. Let me say first of all, I don't feel like Craig ripped me off. It didn't turn out to be my cup of tea, but I do feel like the product is on the level; and for a certain market, it's a really good product.
Craig sends out an email update everyday either restating his disdain for cardio or promoting other people like Brad Pilon, Vince Delmonte, Jason Farrugia, etc. I was shocked a couple of days ago, one of his emails has this in it:
I have no dog in this fight per se - but I will raise the possibility that similar text like this could also be due to two distinct paraphrasings of a third (and unreferenced) source or textbook.
If it would take "2,737,850 million billion billion billion monkey-years" for a monkey to type 24 letters of Hamlet, how long does it take Alwyn or Mike to type nearly word for word the text of UD2?
I have no dog in this fight per se - but I will raise the possibility that similar text like this could also be due to two distinct paraphrasings of a third (and unreferenced) source or textbook.
I've done it. Read something somewhere, paraphrased and really there's only so many ways to paraphrase information like that, and credited my source. If I'm in a class with 10 other girls all writing the same paper with the same 4 source articles, they're gonna be a lot alike. My only difference is a bigger vocab, better thesaurus, and 10 extra years of experience writing.
To the idea at hand:
As I'm looking through this, all I see as similarities is the actual "what" of the text. Of course it's gonna be the same, that's what happens. I don't see areas that are less technical that are put up for comparison. The non-crunchy talky bits that would point rather clearly to someone ripping someone else's stuff, as opposed to just the same information presented similarly.
I think the case is skillfully presented to rile people up and piss people off and whatnot. Personally, without both actual documents in front of me, I'd just call it a case of similar dissemination of information. Not like you can just make up new words for this shit. *shrug* You're either gonna read into it what Lyle wants you to, or you're not (and, of course, therefore suckling at Alwyn's teets).
Craig sends out an email update everyday either restating his disdain for cardio or promoting other people like Brad Pilon, Vince Delmonte, Jason Farrugia, etc. I was shocked a couple of days ago, one of his emails has this in it:
As I'm looking through this, all I see as similarities is the actual "what" of the text. Of course it's gonna be the same, that's what happens. I don't see areas that are less technical that are put up for comparison. The non-crunchy talky bits that would point rather clearly to someone ripping someone else's stuff, as opposed to just the same information presented similarly.
As I'm looking through this, all I see as similarities is the actual "what" of the text. Of course it's gonna be the same, that's what happens. I don't see areas that are less technical that are put up for comparison. The non-crunchy talky bits that would point rather clearly to someone ripping someone else's stuff, as opposed to just the same information presented similarly.
Considering Lyle's book was published 5 years before WSFL, and the number of similarities (plus verbatim sentences and even the bolded word, lol), it's unlikely that Mike & Alwyn just sat down and coincidentally produced very similar paragraphs -- it's possible but it's very unlikely.
As I'm looking through this, all I see as similarities is the actual "what" of the text. Of course it's gonna be the same, that's what happens. I don't see areas that are less technical that are put up for comparison. The non-crunchy talky bits that would point rather clearly to someone ripping someone else's stuff, as opposed to just the same information presented similarly.
The bolded word gives it away pretty badly. If his defence is "it just so happens they are this similar" I will think hes not telling us the truth.
The bolded word gives it away pretty badly. If his defence is "it just so happens they are this similar" I will think hes not telling us the truth.
That, and when I first read through them side by side, this one stuck out to me most of all:
Quote:
Originally Posted by UD2
Studies show that women tend to have preferential increases in blood flow to their hips and thighs after a meal; the old wives’ tale about fatty foods going straight to the hips turns out to be true after all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp Speed Cut n Paste
Studies show that women tend to have increases in blood flow to their hips and thighs after a meal; the old saying “a moment on the lips, a lifetime on the hips” appears to be true after all!
Same sentence, with a change to the aphorism.
They don't write that in common textbooks.
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I purchased Turbulance Training last year. Let me say first of all, I don't feel like Craig ripped me off. It didn't turn out to be my cup of tea, but I do feel like the product is on the level; and for a certain market, it's a really good product.
Craig sends out an email update everyday either restating his disdain for cardio or promoting other people like Brad Pilon, Vince Delmonte, Jason Farrugia, etc. I was shocked a couple of days ago, one of his emails has this in it:
A: It really started as a conversation between Mike Roussell and myself. What was the upper limit of fat loss per week? The whole "1-2lbs per week" thing just never really sat well with me.
I mean, if you gave two people of the same weight and body fat, the same program and diet - you'd expect that they'd lose the same weight right? But not always.
Additionally I'd seen client results where the average fat loss was 3, 4, even 5lbs per week sometimes. I'd seen research showing programs that resulted in 35lbs of fat lost, while gaining muscle in 90 days. So I had no idea where the 1-2lbs of fat loss came from.
So I asked Mike what he thought the upper limit was.... and we went back and forth sharing ideas and different stuff. Is it Xlbs per week? Is it a percentage of bodyweight? Is it a percentage of bodyfat? How does it change if you are leaner/fatter ?
Then Mike came to me with an idea:
"Why don't you write an extreme 28 day fat loss training plan, designed to keep lean muscle and make that muscle work so much that you burn a ton of calories round the clock? and then I'll write a nutrition program that will match the workouts closely, support the plan and really ramp up the results..."
I was resistant. I already had written several fat loss products that I knew worked, were super-effective but were longer. 12-16 weeks long usually. I always felt that fat loss was a steady battle day-in, day-out and people that needed to lose large amounts of fat needed a longer drawn out battle. Bodybuilders and figure competitors also spent 16-20 weeks dieting and preparing for contests.
But then I remembered the Dan John quote:
"Fat loss is an all-out war. Give it 28 days — only 28 days. Attack it with all you have. It's not a lifestyle choice; it's a battle. Lose fat and then get back into moderation."
Hmmm.
And I knew that I got emails all the time from people who quite honestly had left it too late to get lean for the summer without doing something more extreme.
It's a well known fact that the two biggest months for diet book sales are New Years and just before Summer. People procrastinate. They wait until the last minute. And they are embarrassed to show up at a pool party or a BBQ, or go to the beach without wearing a big, baggy t-shirt....
Sure if they had thought about it four or five months ago they'd be in great shape right now -- but now it's their daughters wedding in 30 days and they need to drop a dress size...
So I came up with a plan, and we test ran it with a few participants.
...
Considering Lyle's book was published 5 years before WSFL, and the number of similarities (plus verbatim sentences and even the bolded word, lol), it's unlikely that Mike & Alwyn just sat down and coincidentally produced very similar paragraphs -- it's possible but it's very unlikely.
I'm not joking. I'm saying the the information presented for comparason isn't much for conclusive screaming of foul play simply because it's a bunch of physiological crap that there's only so many ways you can say it. I don't have both actual full texts in front of me, nor the source material they were drawn from, because I'm sure NEITHER of them just pulled this shit out of their asses.
I'm not saying they're not similar, but how can one tell, without looking at the source material, if it's that one is paraphrasing the other, or if they're both paraphrasing the same source material?
Frankly, without seeing more information I'm not gonna bother wasting my outrage, when maybe they're both nimrods, or both legit or any number of combinations in between. I don't put it past anyone to be a douche. But I'm not gonna take one douche's word that some other douche is a douche. There's plenty of douchery in the fitness industry to go around.
Yeah, I know. I'd also be the chick that would hold out most likely for reasonable doubt in a trial. I can't see stringing someone up by the nuts without knowing what is really going on. Course, I don't really care here. And neither do youse. I think Lyle is very good at playing into people's prejudices and preconceptions and feelings of outrage. Whether or not it's true, he is sure to paint the picture well in his favor. If he's so outraged, let him sue and battle it out that way.
It's the same frickin shit all the time. The frickin information isn't changing fast, everything is frickin revolutionary, everyone has a frickin gimmick. Whatever. There's just way more important things to be outraged over than this crap.
I thought this was funny on the front page of his blog. Red emphasis is mine:
Quote:
Wednesday, July 09, 2008
Bill Hartman on Warp Speed Fat Loss
I stole this from Mike Robertson's website: Mike Robertson: A few months ago you shed a significant amount of weight following Mike Roussell’s and Alwyn Cosgrove’s Warp Speed Fat Loss protocol. Can you explain the program to everyone? I know there’s been a lot of questions about it.
Bill Hartman: Yeah, this is very cool concept, but it’s not for the rank beginner in most cases. That’s not to say that the foundational principles don’t apply. I just don’t think they can tolerate the actual program.
I'm not joking. I'm saying the the information presented for comparason isn't much for conclusive screaming of foul play simply because it's a bunch of physiological crap that there's only so many ways you can say it. I don't have both actual full texts in front of me, nor the source material they were drawn from, because I'm sure NEITHER of them just pulled this shit out of their asses.
I've laid the source material side by side and compared them. There is no question -- what Lyle presented in his blog post is verbatim from the WSFL and UD2.0 ebooks.
Why this is even in question, by anyone literate that is, I don't know.
Quote:
I'm not saying they're not similar, but how can one tell, without looking at the source material, if it's that one is paraphrasing the other, or if they're both paraphrasing the same source material?
Show me this mysterious source material, then. I've seen the relevant research papers. I've seen nothing of this nature in them -- Lyle's original summary in UD2 is derived from a brief review of that research.
There is no textbook, as such, and I don't recall any of the studies making references to "old wives tales" or "cake going straight to the hips".
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I've laid the source material side by side and compared them. There is no question -- what Lyle presented in his blog post is verbatim from the WSFL and UD2.0 ebooks.
Agreed. I have both books. It's clear something is up.
I've laid the source material side by side and compared them. There is no question -- what Lyle presented in his blog post is verbatim from the WSFL and UD2.0 ebooks.
The source of the original studies, books, or whatever was used to by Lyle and/or Alwyn/Mike to write their respective thingies. I don't have the WHOLE books/articles and whatnot to look and see the WHOLE damn thing. Unless Lyle came up with everything in his stuff all by his lonesome with his own studies and personal experimental knowledge, using nothing more than his very own brain and memory and reasoning.
You're saying Lyle's shit is Alwyn's source because of the similarity. So Lyle came up with it all by himself, using no external source material?
Quote:
Why this is even in question, by anyone literate that is, I don't know.
Either you don't understand what I'm saying, or I'm simply fundamentally wrong in my assumption that Lyle didn't pull his whole work out of his ass. If he did, and had no basis of research other than his own, and there is no other research either author could pull from, then I guess my statements would be different.
Quote:
Show me this mysterious source material, then. I've seen the relevant research papers. I've seen nothing of this nature in them -- Lyle's original summary in UD2 is derived from a brief review of that research.
Dude, I'm not saying what this shit might be. I'm saying THAT I HAVE NOT SEEN IT SO THEREFORE I CAN'T JUST COME TO AN INFORMED CONCLUSION. What the fuck is wrong with saying "I don't know all the information, therefore I can't say I agree with your conclusion." Are you trying to tell me that I'm an idiot because I haven't seen crap you have, so therefore I'm not coming to YOUR informed conclusion?
So you're saying that there is relevant research papers. So Lyle didn't just pull his whole pile out of his ass/own body of research? Then his shit isn't the SOURCE MATERIAL I'm talking about, now is it?
Quote:
There is no textbook, as such, and I don't recall any of the studies making references to "old wives tales" or "cake going straight to the hips".
Oh, right. Sure. I already agreed that they were similar, in the parts that were presented on Lyle's site.
My point was that what Lyle showed was shit that was just different phrasing of the same damn fucking information. How many ways can one say the mitochondria do this and the insulin does that? Facts are like that. So, to gauge as to whether one copied from the other would require looking at shit that isn't just based on some other fucking research they both likely consulted.
Dude. I'm not saying one way or another. I'm saying I can't come to a conclusion without all the information. That's why not just the prosecution gets to present evidence.
And no, I'm not actually interested in going and looking. It's not that important to me. I'm just pointing out points of doubt, that based on Lyle's little rant there's little to make me think what he wants me to think.
Sheesh. You'd think I was denying the fucking holocaust here. Rather than just present the possibility of reasonable doubt.
Personally, I don't actually think you understood what I said.
Why this is even in question, by anyone literate that is, I don't know.
Because it makes much more sense that both Lyle and Alwyn copied the same "textbook" that nobody seems to know about or has ever heard of. And it makes perfect sense that the author of said textbook has never called Lyle out in the 5 years since he wrote UD2. And it also makes perfect sense that Lyle copied said textbook...knows that he copied said textbook...yet makes it public when someone else copies the material that he copied.
Research papers dont use nice metaphors to explain things, or bold words (rare at least). usually its just data, how data gets converted to the same sentance structure is beyong me.. let alone multiple paragraphs.
anyone who bought this product should demand their money back without a doubt.
Research papers dont use nice metaphors to explain things, or bold words (rare at least). usually its just data, how data gets converted to the same sentance structure is beyong me.. let alone multiple paragraphs.
This is exactly why I don't understand why some people aren't getting this. Research papers are notoriously dull and dry (except to geeks like Lyle that love them); it's just the data, the process for extracting that data, and a short conclusion as to what that data might mean. Lyle took that research information and wrote a book, translating the data and science for the stupid people like me. Two people could theoretically read that same information, interpret it the same way, and write about it. But using the same exact words and sentence structure? No...no way in hell.
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