women are not going to come in and say "give me muscles, make me buff". of course we will tell you we want to lose weight and tone - this is ingrained in us. do what you do well with men just modify it.
women go to trainers for two reasons 1) they need a push (these women have worked out but took a break and need motivation or 2) they are newbies that need confidence. 2 is most important. when i started, i worked out for 2 years, cardio mostly and a few machines but i was afraid. i went to a fabulous trainer, who i picked. Why? cuz i watched him and he trained all men (1 woman only) and not only that - he was tough on them. i asked for him and he did exactly what i expected. why? he brought me to the "male" side of the gym. put me on the basic cycle men do.
Male trainers are so focused on getting a woman lean - puleese - i can do less weight-hi reps (the female thing), or more weight-low reps - either way (contrary to belief), I'm not gonna turn in to madonna unless im on steriods. so i digress...
MOST trainers i see, take women in to a room and throw em a ball, multi muscle based bull*. that's ok for women who are overweight i guess. but i can do cardio on my own and i want my trainer to give me the tools i need to workout alone.
So getting to your question, mistakes male trainers make with females (all are compared to what u'd do with men)-
-ignoring our form, u think oh they are using light weight so it dont matter...
-failure to push us, oh we just cant find the strength for those last few...
-isolation, we dont wanna bulk - full body is better? ...NO
-assuming we need you to incorporate cardio - we are not capable of doing that on off days
lastly, (and i dont know if this is different than men) women need to know. I wanna know what we are working and when. i wanna know the plan. this guy im training with now SUCKS at this. sometimes i wonder if he even remembers what muscles we worked last! today i told him i had it with the interval bs 30 min thru. he took me to the "male" area and suddenly he was pushing me verbally, spotting me, and was more interested. I have to wonder if his interest in my workout was due to the men watching him train me - go figure. either way, we were both happy.
best of luck. ps women complain too, gotta put em in their place
women are not going to come in and say "give me muscles, make me buff". of course we will tell you we want to lose weight and tone - this is ingrained in us. do what you do well with men just modify it.
women go to trainers for two reasons 1) they need a push (these women have worked out but took a break and need motivation or 2) they are newbies that need confidence. 2 is most important. when i started, i worked out for 2 years, cardio mostly and a few machines but i was afraid. i went to a fabulous trainer, who i picked. Why? cuz i watched him and he trained all men (1 woman only) and not only that - he was tough on them. i asked for him and he did exactly what i expected. why? he brought me to the "male" side of the gym. put me on the basic cycle men do.
Male trainers are so focused on getting a woman lean - puleese - i can do less weight-hi reps (the female thing), or more weight-low reps - either way (contrary to belief), I'm not gonna turn in to madonna unless im on steriods. so i digress...
MOST trainers i see, take women in to a room and throw em a ball, multi muscle based bull*. that's ok for women who are overweight i guess. but i can do cardio on my own and i want my trainer to give me the tools i need to workout alone.
So getting to your question, mistakes male trainers make with females (all are compared to what u'd do with men)-
-ignoring our form, u think oh they are using light weight so it dont matter...
-failure to push us, oh we just cant find the strength for those last few...
-isolation, we dont wanna bulk - full body is better? ...NO
-assuming we need you to incorporate cardio - we are not capable of doing that on off days
lastly, (and i dont know if this is different than men) women need to know. I wanna know what we are working and when. i wanna know the plan. this guy im training with now SUCKS at this. sometimes i wonder if he even remembers what muscles we worked last! today i told him i had it with the interval bs 30 min thru. he took me to the "male" area and suddenly he was pushing me verbally, spotting me, and was more interested. I have to wonder if his interest in my workout was due to the men watching him train me - go figure. either way, we were both happy.
best of luck. ps women complain too, gotta put em in their place
im in favor of isolation - to the extent that men are in favor of it. my point really was that male trainers tend to make women feel that they should not isolate due to the bulk factor which they tell women to avoid. trainers know - although often state otherwise to women - that we cannot bulk by isolating. this is a fallacy purported by men in general - for reasons unknown to me. muscles cannot detect gender, thats a fact. how they grow to shape a particular body may differ but how they react to being taxed does not.
im in favor of isolation - to the extent that men are in favor of it. my point really was that male trainers tend to make women feel that they should not isolate due to the bulk factor which they tell women to avoid. trainers know - although often state otherwise to women - that we cannot bulk by isolating. this is a fallacy purported by men in general - for reasons unknown to me. muscles cannot detect gender, thats a fact. how they grow to shape a particular body may differ but how they react to being taxed does not.
I think that most people on this board would agree that everyone, regardless of gender, should be focusing on multi-joint, compound movements. Isolation can have it's place in a well designed program, but I think ( I could be wrong ) most of us here would choose a compound move over an isolation move any day of the week.
women are not going to come in and say "give me muscles, make me buff". of course we will tell you we want to lose weight and tone - this is ingrained in us. do what you do well with men just modify it.
Uh... Do NOT speak for all women. I would NEVER ask a trainer to help me lose weight and tone... Do I hear that all too often - yes. But don't say that about ALL women. Please. My ultimate goal is to build muscle and get buff.
Allerious - I REALLY hope that was a joke, or else you are the biggest chauvanist idiot I've run into in a LONG time.
Uh... Do NOT speak for all women. I would NEVER ask a trainer to help me lose weight and tone... Do I hear that all too often - yes. But don't say that about ALL women. Please. My ultimate goal is to build muscle and get buff.
Allerious - I REALLY hope that was a joke, or else you are the biggest chauvanist idiot I've run into in a LONG time.
I want to step in briefly to defend Allerious... He had a little bit of a rough start here with this thread, but he seems to have mellowed out a lot in his subsequent posts throughout the forum, and seems to be making a genuine effort to contribute and to even learn.
I suggest we stay true to our open door philosophy and give him a second chance as he seems like he has potential. Perhaps if we give him some slack he may be willing to listen to the many women in here and modify his position. We can't beat that into him though. We have to be patient.
Any basic test for serum testosterone levels would disprove this statement.
what i meant, in the context of this thread, was that male trainers should not react to gender, so yes - i my statement was not correct. I still stand by part of my statement that muscles react the same to being taxed, regardless of gender - other factors excluded. results wont be the same and that includes gender, same-gender/ethnicity, gender aside/genetics, and of course people who boost. yet it's silly to get in to those specifics...
what i find funny is men who say isolation does not produce results when i see almost all men isolating much moreso than women. now maybe its symantecs but there is a clear discrimination toward women from men in the gym. this idea that training should differ, is chauvinistic...
some men here dont wanna listen. you all should continue training men as i'm sure you do well. from what ive read, its mostly these men that refuse to have an intelligent give and take. why bother posting?
Last edited by justagurll : 07-31-2008 at 01:06 AM.
what i meant, in the context of this thread, was that male trainers should not react to gender, so yes - i my statement was not correct. I still stand by part of my statement that muscles react the same to being taxed, regardless of gender - other factors excluded. results wont be the same and that includes gender, same-gender/ethnicity, gender aside/genetics, and of course people who boost. yet it's silly to get in to those specifics...
I can demonstrate quite clearly that male and female muscles don't adapt identically.
The general process is similar, but there are very real differences in how the muscle responds to any given stimulus, and you can't just ignore them.
I don't think these differences call for any end-user changes, such as offering different training programs, which is what I think (hope) you're getting at, though.
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what i find funny is men who say isolation does not produce results when i see almost all men isolating much moreso than women.
Debatable at best.
Also: I find it funny that white people say smoking is bad when many white people smoke.
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now maybe its symantecs but there is a clear discrimination toward women from men in the gym. this idea that training should differ, is chauvinistic...
I think the differences in perceptions towards male and female training has more to do with ignorance of physiology than it does of anything else.
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some men here dont wanna listen. you all should continue training men as i'm sure you do well. from what ive read, its mostly these men that refuse to have an intelligent give and take. why bother posting?
You enjoy your generalizations, don't you? I find that deliciously ironic from someone complaining about male chauvinism.
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heehee yes i do enjoy my generalizations but it's fair to say we are more or less on the same page. anyway, i respect anyone who can get away with saying something like, "deliciously ironic."
i'll leave with an example though to clarify my statement regarding discrimination in the gym...sometimes i use the smith machine - i like it but there's only one in my gym. so, i feel men are eye rolling, pacing around, waiting for it, thinking - "get the hell off woman!" at the same time, they stay to stare at my arse
what i find funny is men who say isolation does not produce results when i see almost all men isolating much moreso than women. now maybe its symantecs but there is a clear discrimination toward women from men in the gym. this idea that training should differ, is chauvinistic...
Just because tons of guys do endless bicep curls does not mean that is the best way to go about getting bigger arms. I like the white people smoking example
You can't chalk everything up to being discrimination or chauvinistic. Alot of the times you see trainers having women do much different programs than men is because they don't necessarily know any better. There are lots and lots of trainers that just don't know how to design a good program.
A female might tell a trainer that they want to tone their legs and lose weight, so a trainer (that isn't very good) will have them do light weight for tons of reps and lots of cardio. This doesn't mean the trainer is being chauvinistic or discriminating against her, neither the client or the trainer know any better. I don't think you will find any really good trainers designing drastically different programs for a male vs a female.
heehee yes i do enjoy my generalizations but it's fair to say we are more or less on the same page. anyway, i respect anyone who can get away with saying something like, "deliciously ironic."
i'll leave with an example though to clarify my statement regarding discrimination in the gym...sometimes i use the smith machine - i like it but there's only one in my gym. so, i feel men are eye rolling, pacing around, waiting for it, thinking - "get the hell off woman!" at the same time, they stay to stare at my arse
So...the guys at your gym like to do lots of isolation, bicep curls, and pace around rolling their eyes while waiting for the smith machine. Where do you workout? Curves for Men?
I take it from your post count that you're new here. I think you should know that you've wandered on to a board full of people that aren't your "typical" gym goer. You won't find many of us focusing on isolation movements or using the smith machine.
So...the guys at your gym like to do lots of isolation, bicep curls, and pace around rolling their eyes while waiting for the smith machine. Where do you workout? Curves for Men?
And my morning now begins with a huge laugh! That was priceless! Wish I would have thought of it!
So...the guys at your gym like to do lots of isolation, bicep curls, and pace around rolling their eyes while waiting for the smith machine. Where do you workout? Curves for Men?
I take it from your post count that you're new here. I think you should know that you've wandered on to a board full of people that aren't your "typical" gym goer. You won't find many of us focusing on isolation movements or using the smith machine.
i responded to the thread asking about training women. a fair part of being a good trainer is understanding the client and so i shared my perspective. -justagurll, justaclient...
i responded to the thread asking about training women. a fair part of being a good trainer is understanding the client and so i shared my perspective. -justagurll, justaclient...
I think my main sticking point with your assertions is that you believe that male trainers work with women differently in terms of exercise selection, and that they avoid isolation work with women, but do it themselves. Personally, all of my women clients squat, deadlift, bench press, row, overhead press, etc. I throw in some isolation stuff, but it always has a purpose for their overall development. If you believe that you should be doing isolation stuff because some retarded guys at your gym do it, then you're mistaken.
women are not going to come in and say "give me muscles, make me buff". of course we will tell you we want to lose weight and tone - this is ingrained in us. do what you do well with men just modify it.
Actually, nobody in this industry is going to come in and say that - male or female. This really is the "weight loss" industry. Just about everyone who hires a trainer wants to lose weight. Hardly anyone is interested in gaining muscle or, heaven forbid, actually bulking up. In the real world, I have come to learn that no man cares about training lower body, and no woman cares about training upper body.
It's very misleading to get into this field from having been educated on the internet, because online, it's roughly a 50/50 split between people who want to "bulk" and people who want to "cut". In the real world, it's "cut", 99% of the time. Lol, you'll never get a bodybuilder or some skinny teen who wants to bulk up. Damn shame, but that's the way it is.
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Originally Posted by Bytsi
Allerious - I REALLY hope that was a joke, or else you are the biggest chauvanist idiot I've run into in a LONG time.
Why am I a chauvinist for pointing out something that I have observed on a daily basis for years and thousands of other men could likely attest the same? It's an observation. If you don't like it, blame the people being observed - i.e. the types of women I wrote about. They are in EVERY commercial facility across the country and the world. You don't know how much I'd love to work with a dedicated female athlete. That's exactly the type of thing that I need to establish my reputation. It's a crying shame that there are so few eligible candidates among female gym-goers.
I am not suggesting that the women on this board reflect the images that I wrote about earlier. Quite clearly, that is not the case. However, you must come to realize, as I have, that the internet and real life are two VERY DIFFERENT entities. Have you ever been inside a commercial gym?
Why am I a chauvinist for pointing out something that I have observed on a daily basis for years and thousands of other men could likely attest the same? It's an observation. If you don't like it, blame the people being observed - i.e. the types of women I wrote about. They are in EVERY commercial facility across the country and the world. You don't know how much I'd love to work with a dedicated female athlete. That's exactly the type of thing that I need to establish my reputation. It's a crying shame that there are so few eligible candidates among female gym-goers.
I am not suggesting that the women on this board reflect the images that I wrote about earlier. Quite clearly, that is not the case. However, you must come to realize, as I have, that the internet and real life are two VERY DIFFERENT entities. Have you ever been inside a commercial gym?
I don't know why I even bother... but I'm tired and kinda bored tonight...
Your statements throughout this thread (and some others) have been quite offensive to me. I would love say they are offensive to all women, but unlike you, I don't lump all women (or men) into one category. You want to work with a dedicated female athlete - I feel sorry for any woman who works with you because you have closed your mind completely. Hopefully dedicated female athletes are smart enough to stay far away from you.
Your attitude is offensive, and your gigantic ego has overwhelmed your ability to LISTEN or LEARN.
Have I ever been in a commercial gym? More than 40 hours / week for years - probably since the time you were still in diapers. And guess what - if you manage to stick around for a while, you might eventually learn that people aren't stereotypes, or even what your first impression and ASSumptions about them are.
Given your disdainful response to me in another thread, when I suggested that you seek an education before you try to force the world to fit into your narrow-sighted view, I hold little hope for you. It's sad. But then again, you've brought it all upon yourself.
You said you were going to find another internet forum where the members didn't laugh at you - any luck with that yet?
Well, it's impossible to say anything meaningful without offending someone, so I stopped worrying about that long ago (particularly on the internet, where I'm at liberty to express my true beliefs).
A million little things can offend. You're only offended because you choose to be. You have the power to accept or reject other people's views (which will always differ from your own) without becoming offended in the process.
Apologies never work. Nobody genuinely apologizes for expressing a point of view which they hold to be true. Everything I wrote, I hold to be true. To me, it's purely factual. Life can be very offensive if you let it. For instance, I could be equally offended that you and others do not share my views about training women, but I choose not to be.
That said, any female who trained with me and actually did what was asked of her would see results, and I would enjoy the process of helping them improve. Would they "like me?" I have no idea, and the matter does not particularly concern me. I consider myself a fairly nice person, but when it comes down to it, a person has to ask themselves whether they are training for results or just for fun. In the real world, I get along quite well with most of my female clients. I am very much a results-oriented trainer, because that is what I choose to be.
And yes, I found another forum to conduct my research study. I still intend to contribute to this forum on matters related to personal training. As regards the business side of training, this is the best forum I've come across.
I don't think Allerious' posts even deserve a response, personally. I have nothing to say. Well, except this: when you expect little of your clients/students, you'll get little. It certainly sounds like you lump the vast majority of women into the "not worth my time" category. Well then, don't train them. It will be an exercise in frustration for both of you.
Now I"m going to address Ryan's original question about training women. I think you're on the right track, Ry:
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Originally Posted by RyanA
So if someone were to ask me what's different when training a woman compared to a man I would reply that (in my humble opinion):
1. watch out for very motivated women they are more likely to work themselves into the ground than the guys are.
2. some women may want to take it easier on during her period
3. make sure your guys eat their veggies/fruit and your ladies eat their protein
4. A woman's 5 rep max is closer to her 1rm than a man's is
5. don't do lots of bodyweight squats with a woman that is concerned about the size of her legs
6. guy's love to put too much weight on a bar, convince them what proper progression means
7. Teach your female clients that they are not going to get huge working out with heavy weights.
Can anyone add to this? Can anyone say that any of these are complete bs? Yes, they are broad strokes. But treating each client as an individual and listening to them will tell me when one of the above generalizations don't apply to them.
I'm not too sure about #5. You just don't know, with a woman, what her genetic tendency will be. I do tend to pack on the muscle, but have decided I'd rather be strong enough to get my own self up and out of a chair when I'm 90 than have to be in a nursing home. Now that I'm in my 40s, I find I care less and less about what other people think of my appearance. Health is more important. But that's just me....
Otherwise, I agree with you on the others. On the subject of periods, my female clients (I'm an ACE-certified personal trainer who works with older adults) often tell me when they are having their periods, bad cramps, or other "symptoms." We do adjust workouts accordingly. I also have my share of older women who sometimes have to pause for a hot flash to pass ;-p I do tell them that working out can often help alleviate mentrual cramping. Another personal observation - and maybe I'm a mutant here - I often have a burst of energy the day before I get my period. It's on these days that I can literally move mountains. I definitely take advantage of this in my own workouts. Maybe it's true for other women as well....
Personally, I have had a lot of success (unlike Allerious, who apparently doesn't take the time) educating my clients about the need to lift heavy, and why it's important. They may come in with a history of high rep, low-weight routines, but after a few months at my facility, they are making progress and increasingly happy with their bodies. (I tell them I can't make them look like models, but that they can "have their own best bodies"). I think, because they're OLDER (and thereby more comfortable in their own skins), they come to an acceptance of this more readily, perhaps, than young women. But I don't want to generalize, here!
Actually, nobody in this industry is going to come in and say that - male or female. This really is the "weight loss" industry. Just about everyone who hires a trainer wants to lose weight. Hardly anyone is interested in gaining muscle or, heaven forbid, actually bulking up. In the real world, I have come to learn that no man cares about training lower body, and no woman cares about training upper body.
Uh... Just an FYI sweetie.
Last Nov I hired a trainer to GAIN muscle (AKA bulk) He took me down to a good bf% for it, then we did a bulk. I am in a cut now again and in about a month I will do YET ANOTHER BULK with said trainer by my side!
Since I am a runner I work primarily upper body so I can get that as nice in that area as my legs. So, I care very much about upper body. It is all rock'n just fine right now btw.
Oh yeah and guess what!? I am a girl. Not only a girl but not a spring chicken.
So it does exist and it does happen. I will give you though that it is not a majority but to say "no women..." is flat out wrong.
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Actually, nobody in this industry is going to come in and say that - male or female. This really is the "weight loss" industry. Just about everyone who hires a trainer wants to lose weight. Hardly anyone is interested in gaining muscle or, heaven forbid, actually bulking up. In the real world, I have come to learn that no man cares about training lower body, and no woman cares about training upper body.
It's very misleading to get into this field from having been educated on the internet, because online, it's roughly a 50/50 split between people who want to "bulk" and people who want to "cut". In the real world, it's "cut", 99% of the time. Lol, you'll never get a bodybuilder or some skinny teen who wants to bulk up. Damn shame, but that's the way it is.
Never is a very finite word. Doesn't leave much room for alternatives. I don't know where you work, but I've had quite a few people - women included - who hired me to help them gain muscle. I'm training one of those women now. It does happen. Maybe when you've been doing this a bit longer it will happen for you.
Never is a very finite word. Doesn't leave much room for alternatives. I don't know where you work, but I've had quite a few people - women included - who hired me to help them gain muscle. I'm training one of those women now. It does happen. Maybe when you've been doing this a bit longer it will happen for you.
All statements are generalizations. So long as the intended point is sufficiently conveyed, I don't worry too much about the specific wording. I will concede that, strictly speaking, you are correct. There are exceptions to every rule. But I'm only here to point out the rules.
All statements are generalizations. So long as the intended point is sufficiently conveyed, I don't worry too much about the specific wording. I will concede that, strictly speaking, you are correct. There are exceptions to every rule. But I'm only here to point out the rules.
Do you approach the training of your clients with generalizations, also?
Your post before this said that "you'll never get a bodybuilder or the skinny teen that wants to bulk up." Well..I've had the skinny teen that wanted to bulk up. I've had the bodybuilder - he actually approached me on the floor because he said he'd been watching me and liked the way I trained, and wanted me to write a program for him.
You're correct that most of the people you're going to be training are those that just want to "lose weight and tone." But through constantly pushing their education and getting results by doing smart training, you can change their focus. It's fun when you see that shift, and they start getting excited about their training.
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