Too bad Allerious isn't near my gym. My female clients would kick his ass all over the gym.
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Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
No, you certainly aren't, if what you claim is true. You are an anomaly. I'm not sure why you would expect me to treat your case as the norm,
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidonia
You obviously didn’t grow up in my house…or perhaps you were alive circa the 1950’s? Women know hard labor…at least this one sure does. I don’t work on a farm…tho there are many women who I am sure do…and they SURELY know what hard labor is…but in my house…I was expected to lift and tote and bail just as much as my father was. I was not ever made to feel like a weaker woman…so I never was one. This is me tho…as I stated in the first response. Since I had no brothers it was me who helped move furniture, do outdoor work…etc. I also played every sport under the sun…bball, volleyball, softball, soccer etc…and you learn intensity and what it is to work there too.
Sure, some people had that kind of upbringing. But they generally aren't the types of people who get a gym membership in the first place, so your argument kind of cancels itself out. You know as well as I do that the fitness industry makes its money off sedentary housewives who have little to no background in athletics or physical labour.
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Originally Posted by sidonia
This is because till the past quarter century this is what was crammed down our throats, touted by most exercise gurus, and it’s stuck in some women’s heads. It’s unfortunate…but luckily some of us women do know how to read…(since that doesn’t take much intensity or sweat goodness me)…and we have since corrected the misguided informational onslaught in time to workout the right way.
Absolutely not true. I'm sorry, but this just a fable. Nobody "told" women how to exercise. Females have a natural inclination to do cardio, while males have the same with respect to weight lifting. This is as observable among 15 year old high school students in gym class who have never read anything about training as it is among 30 year olds. This is not to say that women don't have any misconceptions about training - that they do, no doubt. But ultimately, they DO have an ingrained bias towards low-intensity aerobics. I mean, come on - aerobics, as an activity, is so overwhelmingly dominated by females - as weight training is by males - that to attempt to deny the obvious conclusion is absurd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidonia
This comes down to education…and there are men guilty as hell of this one too…don’t even get me started.
Negative. A "bad diet" for a male is going to include things like hamburgers, subs, steak, pizza, etc. In other words, a solid mixture of fats, proteins, and carbs. At the very least, the male's diet will not be protein deficient.
But when women eat poorly, they consume things like bread, pasta, soy, snack bars, cereals, sweetened yogurt, cheese (low fat, of course), tofu, chocolate, etc...in other words, nothing but carbohydrates, all day long. Carbohydrate addiction is a major problem affecting all of society, but women fall for it the worst. I'm sure that everyone can name a handful of their female acquaintances who either are practicing vegetarians, near-vegetarians, or have been so in the past. If you tried making such a tally among men, you wouldn't pull up nearly as many names.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidonia
I will argue that I have seen and heard trainers complaining about men who are far more lazy…who whine…and don’t know how to suck it up. This again…is from what I have seen/heard…and certainly does not apply to all men by any means…I would not ever assume such a thing. My trainer knows me so well he knows he can walk away and I will continue squatting till he gets back. This babe…needs not be sat for.
Male whiners exist, but with females it's pretty much a given. You are clearly an exception to the rule. You should walk into a commercial fitness facility some time and record what you see. I can summarize it for you:
1) The majority of men will be engaged in weight training
2) The majority of women will be engaged in cardio training
3) Of the women engaged in weight training, they will not be training with loads remotely approaching those used by the men, and their intensity will clearly be lower.
4) Of the men engaged in cardio training, the majority of them will be using a higher intensity level than the women
Conclusion: Men work harder than women at physical activities
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidonia
I feel after reading your post that perhaps you don’t like women so much…
I'm simply a realist. Most females prefer a bullshitter, as I've already pointed out. You will see, in due time, that I know what I'm doing when it comes to training.
You have to admit, the other members of your gender aren't doing much to improve the perception of women as a whole. At least, where fitness is concerned...
On ice pour the shot of Vodka. Then pour the equal parts of Red Bull and Orange Juice leaving enough room for the 1/2 shot of Bourbon and a splash of coke. Stir just slightly. Trust me with these ingredients...you will be feeling good.
I would love to hear from the women (trainers or not) about what male trainers do wrong with female clients. [...]
Most of my clients come to me to lose weight and "get in shape".
Here's are some thoughts, speaking as someone who at one time was part of your target market: a fat woman willing to spend her disposable income on a personal trainer.
1. When a client comes to you to lose weight and "get in shape", you still don't really know what she wants. Does she want to lose twenty pounds and drop one dress size? Does she want to look like Jessica Biel circa Blade Trinity or like Jessica Alba pre-pregnancy. So, my first advice is: ASK more questions until you know what she actually wants. Also, ASK what kind of trainer she is looking for: a drill instructor, an kindler gentler encourager, et cetera. I expect a lot of things from trainers, but I don't expect them to read minds.
2. LISTEN to what I say. When I was looking for a trainer way back in the dawn of time, I had the following conversation more than once. I trust the problem is obvious:
Trainer: "What are your goals?"
Me: "To get stronger and lift more weight."
Trainer: "Great. I can write a great program for you to lose some weight. I had a lady lose fifty pounds with me."
3. Don't ignore my questions. If I say that I want compound exercises, and you show up with a program that has bicep curls, you should have a very good reason as to why there are there. Think of yourself as a web designer: every element on the page should have a purpose, otherwise, you are wasting my time and my money.
4. Be considerate of my time and my requests. If I tell you that I will do my own warm up and cooldown, don't waste the first and last five minutes of my paid-for hour doing a WU/CD. If I tell you not to lecture me about nutrition, don't start the session by asking me what I had for breakfast.
5. Keep in mind that my current shape and size are not good predictors of my knowledge base (although they may be good predictors of how I apply that knowledge). Don't be condescending.
I know I've written about this subject elsewhere; I'll try and dig it up over the weekend.
Mich, lack of specificity in goal setting is the single biggest problem endemic to this field. You hear the words, "tone, lose weight, firm up, get stronger, more energy" so many times that it all starts to blend into an unintelligible morass of noise. Combine that with the fact that most trainers only know a single training methodology, and you end up with a ton of BS sugar-coated to the sky. "You want more strength, mass, endurance, flexibility, energy, and athletic ability, all at the same time? Sure, why not!"
I'd say that was a good read, but then I'd be lying about the part where I implied I read.
Wow, "Allerious," that kind of awsum knowlege must get you far. Of course, the reason women are like this is because they have smaller brains than men and have very bad math and spacial relation skills. See, that bad sense of direction is why we never get anywhere and it's so hard to set goals. So it's good that you're continuing to fight the good fight and take each woman trainee you come across and learn her good. You seem to have a great bedside manner, and that's a good quality in a personal trainer. I'm sure you'll go far. Just remember, it's best to distract women when they get all talky and annoying with their feelings and crap by talking about shoes or sales or something like that. Maybe even a good casserole recipe.
I'm almost embarrassed that a thread I started took this turn, but the question was a sincere one. Thank you to those that treated it as such.
Mich, your post is great. Thanks.
One of my favorite combo's is farmers walk alternated with the c2 rower. I've used this with most of my clients. My current training is based on lifting a keg and doing handstand pushups.
I think that my programming is similar to what some of you are doing. I'll keep doing what I'm doing and make sure that I get feedback.
To add a serious note (why not, that guy stole my trolling thunder):
I've never trained a female any differently from a male.
When I say that, I mean it literally, not the *wink wink, nudge nudge* that often goes on. You know, where it's "Men and women should train exactly the same, except...." then go on to include pump-n-tone crap from Oxygen or Shape or whatever anyway.
My wife's doing a bodybuilding show in a few months and she's currently on a setup that's all but a powerlifting routine. Gradually it will include more bodybuilder-ish stuff (in both weight training and conditioning), but the basics of that strength development won't go away.
It works, and I see no reason to substitute fluffier crap just because she's female. I'd say the same for any other woman I worked with that had physique goals.
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Ryan...I'm curious...when you are training a man who comes you to overweight to lose weight and a woman who comes to you for the same, do you start both of them with the same workouts? Or do they differ because of gender? Just a question...
I totally agree Mich that was an excellent post, it also sounded like some of the problems I've encountered before in most commercial gyms I've been to!
Most of my clients (past and present) are women. I find that working with men is easier. I think this is mostly because I can relate to their bodies and goals better. Oddly enough I've always gotten along with women more than men.
I would love to hear from the women (trainers or not) about what male trainers do wrong with female clients. I feel like my program design is off some and I would really like to dial it in.
Most of my clients come to me to lose weight and "get in shape". I typically start with a jm as warmup or a light bodyweight circuit of some kind. I then do a strength training portion and then a higher paced circuit or cardio routine. I finish with a cool down of some kinds usually stretching with bands.
Any resources (blogs, books, sites, etc.) on helping my female clients would be really appreciated. Thanks.
I work out at home because 1) I live in the boonies where there aren't any optioins, and 2) I don't play well with others. But... I've had a couple of trainers in the past. They were rather like Allerious. I got nowhere (duh) and quit the trainer ASAP. If I were to hire a trainer again, #1 priority would be for him/her to TEACH me about what's going on, in depth, not just order me around. Then what everyone else said.
It works, and I see no reason to substitute fluffier crap just because she's female. I'd say the same for any other woman I worked with that had physique goals.
Yes, of course it works the same for men and women but that doesn't mean the latter group will be willing to do it. Consider yourself lucky. Really, it's only on the internet where you hear about all these female bodybuilders and powerlifters. I can count the number of them I've seen in real life on one hand, and I work at a very busy facility that draws a number of "semi-serious" lifters.
You read threads like these and you get the impression that every female is doing Olympic lifts and heavy compounds. Give me a break. It's one out of every 10,000.
You want to teach them BB back squats? Half of them are already terrified of doing swiss ball squats with their back against a wall. Good luck with that.
Moreover, you don't train men and women the same way for hypertrophy. Men are all about their upper body and abs, while women are all about their lower body and abs. Women don't want or need traps, biceps, or pecs. Men really couldn't care less about glutes, hams, and quads. Yeah, I know that in the online world, it's taboo not to care about your "wheels". But guess what, the internet doesn't mirror the real world, as I've found out the hard way.
So the training style should be similar but not the actual split.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nutbar
I work out at home because 1) I live in the boonies where there aren't any optioins, and 2) I don't play well with others. But... I've had a couple of trainers in the past. They were rather like Allerious. I got nowhere (duh) and quit the trainer ASAP. If I were to hire a trainer again, #1 priority would be for him/her to TEACH me about what's going on, in depth, not just order me around. Then what everyone else said.
Why are you making assumptions about my training ability? Teaching people about what's going on is exactly what I strive to do. I want the client to be an active partner in his or her own fitness program. To that end, I try to go over a huge amount of material with them and explain it in simple terms. I spend hours making my own handouts on various topics. My goal is to teach them how to train themselves. I am the very antithesis of your typical "babysitter" trainer.
If you "went nowhere" while training with me, it would be nobody's fault except your own. That's the entire point of my essay. Women are basically untrainable. They can't or won't do what it takes to make progress. Working with a typical female is a nightmare scenario for someone who is technical and results oriented, like I am.
Ryan...I'm curious...when you are training a man who comes you to overweight to lose weight and a woman who comes to you for the same, do you start both of them with the same workouts? Or do they differ because of gender? Just a question...
Honestly, not really. But let me give you some real examples of things that I have to work around. Because of my current training environment I am not doing any barbell training. If I was I would be doing lots of low rep heavy deads and squats with my clients. I like sldl's for the ladies quite a bit because it seems to hit the spots that I hear them say they are concerned about and I think it's a great overall exercise for someone's health.
But I don't have barbells. So I do a lot of bodyweight work and I've had several women complain about size that they put on doing bodyweight squats. I've never ever had a man complain to me about this. So I do goblet squats using kb's and db's and weighted lunges with them. Not a big deal. What is strange to me is that this happened at all. Now for guys being "big" seems to be slightly different than what a woman perceives. It's this variance in perception, wants and needs that I thought others here might have some perspective or input on.
So if someone were to ask me what's different when training a woman compared to a man I would reply that (in my humble opinion):
1. watch out for very motivated women they are more likely to work themselves into the ground than the guys are.
2. some women may want to take it easier on during her period
3. make sure your guys eat their veggies/fruit and your ladies eat their protein
4. A woman's 5 rep max is closer to her 1rm than a man's is
5. don't do lots of bodyweight squats with a woman that is concerned about the size of her legs
6. guy's love to put too much weight on a bar, convince them what proper progression means
7. Teach your female clients that they are not going to get huge working out with heavy weights.
Can anyone add to this? Can anyone say that any of these are complete bs? Yes, they are broad strokes. But treating each client as an individual and listening to them will tell me when one of the above generalizations don't apply to them.
Ive trained women who have never lifted a weight, Ive trained women who were athletes, and Ive trained fitness bunnies through and through.
They all pressed, they all squatted, and they all DLed to the best of their abilities regardless of age. No exceptions. The difference is in what they bring to the table. If they have mobility/flexibility/stability issues then that will determine the starting point and where to go from there. So someone might need to get comfortable with goblet squats first because they are so weak in the hams and glutes that they cant sit back, but at the end of the day they will learn all major compound movements.
If women have fear, its because the trainers 1) dont explain things well or 2) the trainer doesnt address any mobility or stability issues prior to lifting barbells which scares the client. If you cant show her how to breathe or brace to maintain her form, and if shes never done it before, then how can you expect her to go all out?\
I coach my clients. So I explain to them why we're doing something and relate to their backgrounds or goals so they are more accepting of it.
Even if they dont diet, they will see results in the beginning and that will usually motivate them to diet the way I say or to keep up with what I tell them (I do hand out hwk so that they feel more accountable).
Every female regardless of size has been able to squat and DL at least 135. Just for example, my smallest girl was 110lbs at 5'1' and she DLed 170 with straps. My strongest girl weighed about 165 at 5'8 and DLed 330.
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I work out at home because 1) I live in the boonies where there aren't any optioins, and 2) I don't play well with others. But... I've had a couple of trainers in the past. They were rather like Allerious. I got nowhere (duh) and quit the trainer ASAP. If I were to hire a trainer again, #1 priority would be for him/her to TEACH me about what's going on, in depth, not just order me around. Then what everyone else said.
That's a bummer. I was told by another trainer that I explained too much to my clients. I heard more "ouch's" from this guys clients than anything.
Most of my clients are about "life change" rather than "skinny for a wedding". I can appreciate both but I would rather work with the former. I like the idea that my clients will be able to take what I've taught them and use it on their own.
Allerious, I'll give you a bit of advice since you are new here ... the women you will find here are not your typical cardio bunny soccer moms. Yes many of us are moms, but we all love to lift heavy shit. Many of us are really into PL or OL ... deads and squats are a regular part of our routines.
Before you break out the generalizations, keep in mind where you are ... this is not Women's Health or Oxygen ... this is JPs and the women here are different. So keep your misogynistic generalizations to yourself.
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Yes, of course it works the same for men and women but that doesn't mean the latter group will be willing to do it. Consider yourself lucky. Really, it's only on the internet where you hear about all these female bodybuilders and powerlifters. I can count the number of them I've seen in real life on one hand, and I work at a very busy facility that draws a number of "semi-serious" lifters.
You read threads like these and you get the impression that every female is doing Olympic lifts and heavy compounds. Give me a break. It's one out of every 10,000.
You want to teach them BB back squats? Half of them are already terrified of doing swiss ball squats with their back against a wall. Good luck with that.
You have a point, kinda-sorta, but it's based on reasons that don't quite connect to the outcome.
You're absolutely 100% correct about how the vast, vast majority of women look at exercise, especially weight training.
What I disagree with is that women can't or won't overcome it. Yeah, again you have a point in that a lot won't get over it, and a good chunk of that don't want to. They get caught up in perceptions and thought processes that discourage it.
Whether or not that's something inherent to females as a gender is something I'll leave to people more educated on the matter than I.
All I can say is that a woman that truly wants to get in shape, and is thus motivated to do such, will do what it takes to get there.
Considering that many people regardless of gender aren't motivated thus, I dunno if I'd be so quick to assume it's female-linked just based on superficial anecdote. It could well be, but it's a hasty assumption either way.
Quote:
Moreover, you don't train men and women the same way for hypertrophy. Men are all about their upper body and abs, while women are all about their lower body and abs. Women don't want or need traps, biceps, or pecs. Men really couldn't care less about glutes, hams, and quads. Yeah, I know that in the online world, it's taboo not to care about your "wheels". But guess what, the internet doesn't mirror the real world, as I've found out the hard way.
So the training style should be similar but not the actual split.
I haven't used a split with anyone, including myself, in years (beyond a basic two-way, like upper/lower body or push/pull, but I doubt that's what you're speaking of). So that's largely irrelevant in my programming.
Hypertrophy is going to happen with any progressive loading according to genetic tendencies. Where people "want it to happen" is bro-magic. Develop the person, the shape will follow.
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But I don't have barbells. So I do a lot of bodyweight work and I've had several women complain about size that they put on doing bodyweight squats. I've never ever had a man complain to me about this. So I do goblet squats using kb's and db's and weighted lunges with them. Not a big deal. What is strange to me is that this happened at all. Now for guys being "big" seems to be slightly different than what a woman perceives. It's this variance in perception, wants and needs that I thought others here might have some perspective or input on.
The problem with most women, myself included is that we don't want to have to go up a size in clothing. If I need to buy a 14 instead of a 12 and I have been working out...I may not understand that the change is a good one...even tho my legs are stronger and my butt may be firmer. You can squish fat into those jeans but your muscles will take up more space! I have gotten over this...but many women find it hard. I guess that may be a little psychological insight into some of it...maybe!
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanA
So if someone were to ask me what's different when training a woman compared to a man I would reply that (in my humble opinion):
1. watch out for very motivated women they are more likely to work themselves into the ground than the guys are.
2. some women may want to take it easier on during her period
3. make sure your guys eat their veggies/fruit and your ladies eat their protein
4. A woman's 5 rep max is closer to her 1rm than a man's is
5. don't do lots of bodyweight squats with a woman that is concerned about the size of her legs
6. guy's love to put too much weight on a bar, convince them what proper progression means
7. Teach your female clients that they are not going to get huge working out with heavy weights.
Can anyone add to this? Can anyone say that any of these are complete bs? Yes, they are broad strokes. But treating each client as an individual and listening to them will tell me when one of the above generalizations don't apply to them.
From my personal experience...again this is only me...
#1 was true for me. It was good for me to figure out. I have burned myself out working too hard, but now I know that that feels like, and I know what's too much so I can be more aware.
#2 is something I have seen all my life. In gym class for instance in HS, we were allowed not to participate if we had cramps. For me, I like to be perceived as more of an equal to a man...(I have a bit of a feminist thing) so I tend to suck it up. Sometimes I actually am completely sapped of energy. I will usually go in knowing I will be more tired but I will push myself to make it through. I have friends who will not go out...and who stay home under the covers, watching tv...I don't understand this...but that's just me! (there are also medical reasons that a women might be REALLY tired during her period…I have experienced this as well.)
#6 is actually something I suffer from. I believe it's due to my need to be comparable in strength to men. I'm just a weirdo...I know this now...
#7 I have learned but so many women don't get. Unless you are pumping your body full of testosterone, or eating and excess of calories rich in protein...or you're a genetic freak...it's not going to happen. This is just a matter of educating them, and them trusting you.
You summed it all up tho with your last statement which...if more trainers understood I think people would make more progress:
"But treating each client as an individual and listening to them will tell me when one of the above generalizations don't apply to them."
I am going to reply to this because in truth I think that you make some good points and I actually agree with you on some things, however you are missing the big training picture and are showing your lack of experience or narrow field of training. It is obvious that your training is limited to a certain demographic financially and "culturally".
You are right about the type of body that the average female gym goer wants. Most women are not like what is on this board and I think that the majority of people here don't acknowledge that sometimes themselves. There is different body types and different body wants.
However, you problem is that you are also being narrowminded about different kinds of looks and goals that women want/can achieve.
You are showing your inexperiance with the fact that what was once seen as taboo or abnormal can be seen later as ideal or desirable.
For example, many years ago I used to think the average actress was so "cut" and lean. Now, I really know what lean is.
You show me the average actors abs that are supposed to be "ripped" and I inside am going..."um yeah where are the abs?"
That is me because I am surronded by 3-6% striations, veins popping, and ripped cut deep lines.
Not everyone wants that though.
The average world thinks that Vin Diesel is a gigantor, in my world we know he can be seen as small. But for actor/average people world land it is huge. It is all in your prospective and all about what you get use to.
You are obviously use to women who only know that world and you are not used to opening their eyes to a different one, if they so desire.
The majority of women I have consulted with want a body that is like this...
Some might want to call her skinny fat, well that is just not true. May not be your look or want but it isn't unhealthy.
This is unhealthy...
and the average female doesn't want that.
Still to get the first body I am going to tell some of you it isn't going to happen with most lifting programs.
It is more of a specific type of training and I am in a world working with modeling/actress agencies and Jessica Biel is considered bulky, you have to be realistic about different training looks and needs.
I am talking about this right now on my new podcast and I have gotten some vicious hate mail but sorry there is a difference in training FOR A LOOK.
That being said, if more women saw that different kind of look and more men found it desirable would that perspective change? Sure it would, but that evolution hasn't occurred yet so for now, we as trainers, should do our job of giving a client what they want BUT opening their eyes to more choices. You might be surprised at their reactions.
There is a difference in training women and men. To say otherwise to me shows you lack of client variation or more than likely you letting your own ego get in the way of what they want. That whole "trainer knows best" way of thinking.
Sure in my world, what I would LOVE is to have the ladies go in the gym and hit at it hard with 100+ pound front squats, weighted pull ups, etc and really knock it out. However, does that give the look they want?
What if they are bodybuilding and training for pure aesthetic? What if they have too much muscle and need to go catabolic some for a photoshoot? What if they just need to focus on imbalance work because they can't fire properly from years of all that squating and deads giving them a "shrunken" leg look. Again, have to train for their needs.
It is obvious that you work in a place where the same kind of people come in and out. Come in my world for a day where you train everyone from models to MMA fighter (yes female) and then you come back with your same narrowminded views.
As for how hard women can work and all that bullshit, well you must just get walked all over or something because make no mistake, my models work just as hard as my atheletes and the diets are equally tough.
Regardless you are in the wrong place to preach and show your lack of experiance so I suggest you either a) check out your audience better and start to learn a thing or two about who you are speaking with or b) move on to somewhere else where you are seen as the top dog you think you are.
Yes. Not hitting any crazy numbers yet, but I'm working on it.
Have you tried any of his programs? I did "Have it all" or the 50/20 thing until I left the gym. Can't wait to get back to squatting though .
I love the simplicity of his programs. If your interested in seeing my experience with either of those programs you can check out my log on his forum under the username neoethical.
Yes. Not hitting any crazy numbers yet, but I'm working on it.
Have you tried any of his programs? I did "Have it all" or the 50/20 thing until I left the gym. Can't wait to get back to squatting though .
I love the simplicity of his programs. If your interested in seeing my experience with either of those programs you can check out my log on his forum under the username neoethical.
A great site. I found it a few years ago and have several of his booklets and have used a couple of his free programs. The 50/20 is one of my favorites.
I don't work with a trainer, but I do have a cycling coach who is male, which is similar. I am also a special case in that I'm a 26 year old surgical menopausal athlete (marathon mountain bike racer post reproductive cancer) and he's never worked with an athlete in my situation. We don't skimp on my workouts, and I know for a fact that, other than their being adjusted for my threshold power and goals, I perform the same workouts as his male clients and he does. My sport is different in that it's competitive and if results aren't achieved, it's pretty obvious by my losing a race, but I think the same applies to the strength atmosphere. If I don't improve on my lifts or physique then it's pretty obvious something isn't working. I've had strength trainers who treated me differently because I'm a girl and they didn't last long, but I think a woman who is hungry to lift heavy and make serious changes is a little intimidating to the average "trainer".
We have to trust you. I have a fellow racer friend who readily admits to not trusting her very experienced/very expensive coach, and she performs poorly because she trains poorly. After given workouts, she modifies/wussifies them and refused to push past initial fatigue for fear of "overtraining". In contrast, I have total faith in Jason, perform the workouts, and have increased my threshold power by about 50 watts.
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If I were to hire a trainer again, #1 priority would be for him/her to TEACH me about what's going on, in depth, not just order me around. Then what everyone else said.
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