What's your opinion on wearing gear all the time vs wearing it only a few weeks before a competition?
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And major action will certainly make you feel a bit uncomfortable, which is absolutely fine. You've gotta get excited about feeling uncomfortable, you've gotta love feeling slightly uncomfortable, because you know that you're stepping outside the boundaries that you used to create.
Zach Even-Esh
I've made some huge mistakes, but they were necessary, because without them I wouldn't have learned anything.
-Dave Tate
In the days of z-suits and blast shirts, that was fine to do. Most people that still do this are getting shit all out of their gear.
With any new style of gear, you are not setting yourself up for success. Putting on the gear is not as simple as putting it on and then instantly getting poundage out of it. The first time I wore a bench shirt I droped about 315lbs on my head after i missed it at lockout - at the time my bench was 340 raw.
With something like a bench shirt - you have got to figure out what angle you want to put the sleves at, if you should have the shirt all the way seated, where you should touch, optimal set-up (yes - its different then raw lots of the time). change your grip width, learn how to flare your elbows at the right point in the lift etc.
When i first got my katana, it took me about 8 weeks/sessions to get a weight to touch my chest. If I had thrown on this shirt 4 weeks out I would have bombed out. This is a single-ply ipf legal shirt, which now even comes in a stronger model.
You dont always have to be in the gear- or full gear every week. But you have got to be working on it. What ive gathered from talking to many elite lifters is that raw training has its place in the offseason, but those 12 weeks before a contest you got to be using your gear constantly. I think something like 2 weeks in gear, 1 week out or even 1 in and 1 out could be a good system as well.
I can definitely see things like loose briefs used all the time. But to get in double ply squat suits or bench shits, no way.
First, the stress that the weights are going to put on your tendons, muscles, etc. Benching 500 in a shirt, when you can only hit 300 raw all year round will eventually wear you down. You already see guys getting tendonitis or osis from overuse, but if you don't take a break, and go back to the weights your tendons and body can NORMALLY handle, you're asking for trouble, IMO
I have nothing against gear, but it isn't natural. There's a reason why there is a difference in the raw and geared lifting records. Your body is only built for so much, which is how gear helps get past that stage. Not that PLing is safe by any measure, but you can reduce it.
this is why there should be competition cycles, and off season cycles. Or, if you're going to gear up, work up a good deal in raw work, and then put on gear. Al Caslow does this, and has seen excellent work (550x2 raw squat at 179bw)
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If you compete in gear, you should train in gear, even if it's a small percentage of each training cycle.
I learned this the hard way. 425 raw, 475 in a Rage b/c I put it on for the first time at the meet. I train alone most of the time so training in gear wasn't an option at the time. I also dumped 425 on my lap b/c I jacked the shirt too much and couldn't get it to touch the first time. It sucks going to a meet and seeing guys that raw bench 315 hitting 500+ and you can't.
If you ask the guys who compete at the top, they are all going to tell you to train in gear.
You don't always have to go full range in a shirt, but lifting raw and geared are 180 degrees from each other. I watched Kroc and Justin Harris train together and it was insane. I have some video somewhere that I will upload when I find it. They warmed up raw, then moved to geared. Some full range but not touching and a lot of board work. Then they had a contest to see who could do the most bodyweight dips in a row lmao.
Kroc is fucking scary when he trains. One second he's normal and then he just freaks the fuck out and you get scared that he's going to try to kill someone lmao.
Sunday is our squat and shirt bench day. We lift in our shirts every Sunday. To lift big weights in a shirt, you have to train in a shirt.
The only way your going to get a better shirt bench is going to be doing lots of overloaded work, boards/bands/chains etc. What difference does it make if you are doing it while learning your gear - or doing it raw?
Very few powerlifers do much raw work of the full lifts if their goal is to get strong in gear. Even if it is harder on your body, thats what it takes to do good in it. Ive been using a bench shirt 1x per week for 6 or 7 months now and I still suck really badly in it. Squat gear ive been using almost weekly for about a year, and I still have tons to learn form wise in it. Its a never ending battle.
Exactly Frank. Lifting in gear is skill that has to be honed.
That's a great point too, "even if it is harder on your body." These guys are competing, competition is NEVER good for you, NEVER, not in ANY sport. You made a key point there b/c if you ask any top level competitor or even local competitor, they don't care about health, they care about winning.
No competitor cares about health until they stop competing lol.
The only way your going to get a better shirt bench is going to be doing lots of overloaded work, boards/bands/chains etc. What difference does it make if you are doing it while learning your gear - or doing it raw?
Very few powerlifers do much raw work of the full lifts if their goal is to get strong in gear. Even if it is harder on your body, thats what it takes to do good in it. Ive been using a bench shirt 1x per week for 6 or 7 months now and I still suck really badly in it. Squat gear ive been using almost weekly for about a year, and I still have tons to learn form wise in it. Its a never ending battle.
read how i said he trains, and that's how he trains. He works up to a heavier raw bench/squat/pull, and then throws on gear.
I do 4 weeks in a shirt before each meet, this time it's 2 weeks in a size 42(tight), and 2 weeks in a size 40(very tight).
I do 6 weeks in gear for the squat - 1 week belt only, 1 week suit bottoms, 1 week full suit, 3 weeks full gear(add knee wraps).
I do 6 weeks in gear for the deadlift too - 1 week belt only, 2 weeks suit bottoms, 3 weeks full gear(straps up).
There's usually about 8-14 weeks before comps, so I'll do raw work before I get in the gear. If its an especially long period, I might do something like an 8 week raw peak, and then a 10 week geared peak.
I think for single ply, this is all the work you need to do in your gear. Any more, and you just risk injuries, no point doing more than you need to get the same results imo.
I am a competitor, and I DO care about my health. I want to be able to compete for a long time and reach my full potential, and NOT go too heavy too often and get INJURED.
What if you squatted raw one day and geared in your second session, alco? Still start off raw on your geared day?
Thanks for the responses guys. You all raise good points.
Do you think your gear would stretch out too much if you were to train in it every week?
Also, kind of a silly question. Do you wash your gear the same way you'd wash any gym clothes?
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And major action will certainly make you feel a bit uncomfortable, which is absolutely fine. You've gotta get excited about feeling uncomfortable, you've gotta love feeling slightly uncomfortable, because you know that you're stepping outside the boundaries that you used to create.
Zach Even-Esh
I've made some huge mistakes, but they were necessary, because without them I wouldn't have learned anything.
-Dave Tate
I'm with you, Simon. I want to compete and I want to do it without injury as much as possible.
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And major action will certainly make you feel a bit uncomfortable, which is absolutely fine. You've gotta get excited about feeling uncomfortable, you've gotta love feeling slightly uncomfortable, because you know that you're stepping outside the boundaries that you used to create.
Zach Even-Esh
I've made some huge mistakes, but they were necessary, because without them I wouldn't have learned anything.
-Dave Tate
I never wash gear. I'm too scared it will fuck with the material and make it weaker, and I can't be stuffed buying titans stuff to clean it lol!
Gear stretches a bit at first when you "break it in", affter that it shouldn't stretch too much, and will last a while before it is fucked and you need new shit.
When I do geared sessions, I don't warmup raw. For bench warmups wont touch. For squats and deads, warmups with suit bottoms, then straps up, then knee wraps for squats.
Now pardon me for being a non-gear-guy, but I think that no matter what sport you are in - you should do some training the way you are going to compete. Would you not snatch if you were a weightlifter? Would you not run if you were a spirnter? Would you not lift in gear if you would use it in competition?
The way I see it there are 3 components:
- lifting for injury prevention and some gains
- lifting directly for gains
- lifting/training for competition.
Trough the year these might change their ratio(more raw lifting-less geared to more geared-less raw), but you've gotta have them all.
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Tsvetan Vasilev
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Your making out singleply vs double ply to be a bigger difference then it is. I bet more pounds is given to me on the squat from the fact i dont have to squat as low then the fact my suit uses 2ply of material instead of 1. Lots of 2ply guys are using 1ply katanas now becuase they are better then 90% of the doubleply shirts. Even look at mark bell, hes been using one lately.
I think you opinion will change more as you get stronger simon. The throw the gear on at the end was really popular in the early 90s, but nobody does that anymore because the gear is to good. Imagine an 800lbs bencher training raw and never going above say 550lbs on the bench, then 5 weeks out putting on a shirt and trying for a pr? disaster. very few people train like this anymore, and those that do are usually not at the top.
What if you squatted raw one day and geared in your second session, alco? Still start off raw on your geared day?
Thanks for the responses guys. You all raise good points.
Do you think your gear would stretch out too much if you were to train in it every week?
Also, kind of a silly question. Do you wash your gear the same way you'd wash any gym clothes?
i would say, what would it be that you wanted to bring up? Would it be your geared squat or raw? Do you want to do well in PLing only, or do you want to be overall strong and strong w/o your gear?
If geared, and are doing the WS split, i'd go geared one day, and just briefs or suit bottoms no straps on the DE day.
There are lots of strongmen who do PLing meets in the off season to keep their motivation. probably 8 months at least, out of the year, they're training for strongman, with no gear at all. Then they switch to it for PLing. Marshall White (over at marunde's board) and Ben Moore (wannabebig.com) are two PLers/strongmen to train this way. They are perfectly strong outside and with their gear on.
I guess for me, i wouldn't want to rely only on gear to get strong. I would want to be able to go in and hit a strong pull or squat without gear. If i forgot gear at home, i wouldn't want it to totally ruin my workout. My goals are different than some people's though. I also think training in gear year long can be disastrous, and you are not getting strong this way. Sure, you're getting to know the gear, but if you take it off, is your raw strength up.
Like i said, my goals are different, so i guess if you train ONLY PLing, then it could be different. I really like the way Al (artica) over at sostrength.com has his training set up, and he sees good results this way.
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One other option that I find helps me, is training with lighter gear and then throwing on the good stuff pre-contest.
I do about 90% of my squat training wearing an old stretched out metal pro suit and no breifs/wraps etc. This allows me to use a slightly lighter training weight while still being able to use a very similar form to full gear. Ive noticed some other lifters doing the same thing by using 1 size bigger gear in the offseason.
One other option that I find helps me, is training with lighter gear and then throwing on the good stuff pre-contest.
I do about 90% of my squat training wearing an old stretched out metal pro suit and no breifs/wraps etc. This allows me to use a slightly lighter training weight while still being able to use a very similar form to full gear. Ive noticed some other lifters doing the same thing by using 1 size bigger gear in the offseason.
i can see this as well. It's real similar to what i was saying with the briefs/suit bottoms on one day, and gear on the other.
I think this would really work when you get stronger though. You have to remember that matthew isn't squatting 800 yet. Getting his raw, overall base strength up can only help him in a long run.
It's similar to, i think, the progression of gear from beginner to intermediate, to advanced. A beginner can get good results with just some cheap loose gear, and get an idea of what it's about. As you get stronger and still interested in geared lifting, get stronger gear. You're gonna have a hard time touching weights on heavy duty shirts if you're only benching 225 raw.
I think we have differing opinions on this too. haha
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Id still by quality stuff, buying a z-suit and a blast shirt is not going to help anything
looser fitting / less aggressive designs are ideal I think. touching weights and getting squat depth is almost all in the head and a little technique. Yes, there is ballparks, but even so a 225lbs raw bench couild probally handle a medium fitting titan f6 which is a quality shirt. I imagine with some heavy board work + learning the shirt you would be at 300lbs pretty quick.
Your making out singleply vs double ply to be a bigger difference then it is. I bet more pounds is given to me on the squat from the fact i dont have to squat as low then the fact my suit uses 2ply of material instead of 1. Lots of 2ply guys are using 1ply katanas now becuase they are better then 90% of the doubleply shirts. Even look at mark bell, hes been using one lately.
I think the difference is large, why? Because the difference in numbers is large. I do agree that the bench shirts aren't that different anymore, since the fury/f6 came out. But the difference is still there, and it's still substantial.
I said I talk from a single ply perspective, because that's what I've used. I'm not sure how I would train if I competed multi-ply, but I'm guessing it would be similar, with maybe more weeks in gear. Still lots of raw work though.
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Originally Posted by Frank.S
I think you opinion will change more as you get stronger simon. The throw the gear on at the end was really popular in the early 90s, but nobody does that anymore because the gear is to good. Imagine an 800lbs bencher training raw and never going above say 550lbs on the bench, then 5 weeks out putting on a shirt and trying for a pr? disaster. very few people train like this anymore, and those that do are usually not at the top.
I train with gear 5 weeks before a comp, which is almost half the time. I'm not chucking it on "just before a meet" really, I still get good practice in it.
250lbs our of a single ply shirt lol You are dreaming, so your arguement wouldn't apply to my training.
I'm looking at the method I train still working for people totalling 500lbs more than me, while it's possible you may be right about me changing my opinions when i get stronger, I kinda doubt it now.
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Originally Posted by Alcoholiday
i would say, what would it be that you wanted to bring up? Would it be your geared squat or raw? Do you want to do well in PLing only, or do you want to be overall strong and strong w/o your gear?
I guess for me, i wouldn't want to rely only on gear to get strong. I would want to be able to go in and hit a strong pull or squat without gear. If i forgot gear at home, i wouldn't want it to totally ruin my workout. My goals are different than some people's though. I also think training in gear year long can be disastrous, and you are not getting strong this way. Sure, you're getting to know the gear, but if you take it off, is your raw strength up.
I think raw strength carries over heaps to geared strength, and vice versa. So training both methods would get you stronger, but I don't see the point in being in gear any more often than I already am? And I can only see negatives from using it too often.
If you forgot your gear at home, it would completely ruin your training session if you had any plan to it at all... If you were planning on going heavy in gear, you wouldn't be able to lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank.S
One other option that I find helps me, is training with lighter gear and then throwing on the good stuff pre-contest.
I do about 90% of my squat training wearing an old stretched out metal pro suit and no breifs/wraps etc. This allows me to use a slightly lighter training weight while still being able to use a very similar form to full gear. Ive noticed some other lifters doing the same thing by using 1 size bigger gear in the offseason.
I agree with this, this is the way for benching imo. I want to do a 4 week buildup while in my shirt, but so I can get some experience touching weights I need to use a loose shirt for 2 weeks, and then the tighter shirt for 2 weeks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcoholiday
i can see this as well. It's real similar to what i was saying with the briefs/suit bottoms on one day, and gear on the other.
I think this would really work when you get stronger though. You have to remember that matthew isn't squatting 800 yet. Getting his raw, overall base strength up can only help him in a long run.
It's similar to, i think, the progression of gear from beginner to intermediate, to advanced. A beginner can get good results with just some cheap loose gear, and get an idea of what it's about. As you get stronger and still interested in geared lifting, get stronger gear. You're gonna have a hard time touching weights on heavy duty shirts if you're only benching 225 raw.
I could buy a loose super duper heavy duty 3-ply phenom, and touch 65kg in it if I wanted to
For single ply anyway(may or may not be different for multi), there isn't that much difference between cheap gear and good gear, apart from the carryover. So I don't see a point in using cheap stuff. I went straight to top of the line, tight as possible gear, and it's fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank.S
Id still by quality stuff, buying a z-suit and a blast shirt is not going to help anything
looser fitting / less aggressive designs are ideal I think. touching weights and getting squat depth is almost all in the head and a little technique. Yes, there is ballparks, but even so a 225lbs raw bench couild probally handle a medium fitting titan f6 which is a quality shirt. I imagine with some heavy board work + learning the shirt you would be at 300lbs pretty quick.
I'd still buy top quality gear too. Just a size looser if I couldn't handle it.
Z-suits won't be much harder to learn than a hardcore or a centurion imo. And Blast shirts suck so much, its not funny - I'd probably struggle to get 5kgs out of one from what people tell me. BUT Alco never mentioned z-suits and blast shirts, he could have just meant a decent cheap second hand suit or something to start with. Still I don't see a point, apart from saving money lol.
I know for the single ply gear I've used, I've been able to jump straight into the top quality, tightest gear possible, and get good carryover right off the bat. I think for multiply this would be different for the squats.
I agree Frank that the difference in bench shirts isn't as much as squat suits, but it is still there!
I think raw strength carries over heaps to geared strength, and vice versa. So training both methods would get you stronger, but I don't see the point in being in gear any more often than I already am? And I can only see negatives from using it too often.
If you forgot your gear at home, it would completely ruin your training session if you had any plan to it at all... If you were planning on going heavy in gear, you wouldn't be able to lol.
alright, i think you're agreeing with me? haha. You pretty much said what i was saying or trying to, i think.
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I could buy a loose super duper heavy duty 3-ply phenom, and touch 65kg in it if I wanted to
For single ply anyway(may or may not be different for multi), there isn't that much difference between cheap gear and good gear, apart from the carryover. So I don't see a point in using cheap stuff. I went straight to top of the line, tight as possible gear, and it's fine.
I'd still buy top quality gear too. Just a size looser if I couldn't handle it.
Z-suits won't be much harder to learn than a hardcore or a centurion imo. And Blast shirts suck so much, its not funny - I'd probably struggle to get 5kgs out of one from what people tell me. BUT Alco never mentioned z-suits and blast shirts, he could have just meant a decent cheap second hand suit or something to start with. Still I don't see a point, apart from saving money lol.
I know for the single ply gear I've used, I've been able to jump straight into the top quality, tightest gear possible, and get good carryover right off the bat. I think for multiply this would be different for the squats.
I agree Frank that the difference in bench shirts isn't as much as squat suits, but it is still there!
yea, i don't mean the quality, but getting second hand stuff is what i'd do. That's how i got a lot of the stuff i had (inzer stuff). And, i had a pair of cheap frantz briefs that i used to use when my hips hurt.
you pretty much said what i meant.
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simon you have a pretty oldschool approach. If your lifts are moving up, there is no problem. I think you could make faster progress - but progress is progress.
Im not saying the gear doesnt matter 1ply vs 2ply, but i think the less depth is adding more then the gear. The new generation of single ply squat suits are very damn good. Even the metal V-type I have is pretty comparible to many 2ply suits.
Without a doubt the most common shirt at the 2ply meet i was at last weekend was a singleply katana. There was i think a 700lbs press done in one, 600 @ 198 (actually that was a f6), for the record - the guy who did 600 said he has not benched 400 yet. The guy who did 7 raw pressed mid 4s the year before. 200-250lbs is not unreasonable if you are really good in a shirt and have a real strong lockout.
I train with some singleply guys, they train exactly the same way as me, just squat to a lower box and walk them out once in a while. They are some of the better ipf lifters in canada, actually some national record holders. One other thing to consider - is who you are training with. In canada/usa if you find a group of powerlifters, pretty damn unlikely that they will be singleply lifters.
Faster progress? I got a 26kg deadlift PR last meet lol, but I guess I'll never really know haha And neither will you unless you try training the way I do
My "main" sorta training partner who coaches me too is 8th in the country, 2nd in his weight class, our head coach was pretty good too, although he took this year off competing. I believe I have the best training environment in the country.
I find it unbelievable that people can get so much carryover lol. Most people seem to get like 50kg or less, I get like 25kgs or so, maybe more now with my new shirt - my carryover is getting better all the time though. I know of one guy down here who probably gets 70kgs or so.
How much do you get Frank? About the 50kgish average carryover that I see from most people yeah?
I think getting such high carryover, you probably need a certain type of body with lever lengths and etc, most people can't get that I reckon.
I get crap carryover, 100lbs or so. doesnt really matter the shirt, katana, metal, rage-x same shit for me. work in progress.. i have very weak triceps (even fail at lockout on raw bench).
I think it takes alot of high boards and lockout work to get big carryover. ive put 75lbs on my bench in a few months working with these.
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