I don't know. I have a friend who is right around 15.x% and he looks a whole lot like that first guy.
I am thinking that most of you don't know what 8% to 10% bf is either. I mean know it as having been there. It just seems to me that most of the youngsters here are underestimating their bf and overestimating their LBM.
Let me know if you cannot see these
yes, but anyone will have "rolls" if they bend over. Plus, you can see abs, and veins throughout the arm and bicep.
BF% is stupid, IMO. The only real purpose it serves is for the individual to tell if he's adding bf too fast or not. There are so many different methods, and people who jack up the tests, readings are skewed.
I still stand by my original guess.
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yes, but anyone will have "rolls" if they bend over. Plus, you can see abs, and veins throughout the arm and bicep.
BF% is stupid, IMO. The only real purpose it serves is for the individual to tell if he's adding bf too fast or not. There are so many different methods, and people who jack up the tests, readings are skewed.
I still stand by my original guess.
They looked like abs to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kfisherx
Fat and Strong is where it is at as a PLer.
LOL. Now you're a fat-ass, Frank.
The reason I think that study is shit is because 1) The sample is too small. 177 people is not enough.
2)I can never know if they accurately used height, weight, and BF percentages.
It just sounds like a weak inductive argument to say the average FFMI of 177 people is 25 thus no one can go over 25 FFMI.
Alcoholiday... I can see veins in my biceps and arms at 17.5% bf. Again that is hardly a good way to gauge. In any case I agree with you. Methods to read bf are all over the place. Personally I go by bio-impedence measurements standards for bf and that can be off by a good 3-5%.
That said, I think we can all agree though that he is def too fat to compete by today's standards. So the fact that he is 200lbs in that pic doesn't really apply (apples to apples )to a bber of today's standards. That is the real point to my post. I am wondering if any of the would be bbers on here know of a 5'6" or 5'7" natural bber of today's standards who is over 200lb.
Alcoholiday... I can see veins in my biceps and arms at 17.5% bf. Again that is hardly a good way to gauge. In any case I agree with you. Methods to read bf are all over the place. Personally I go by bio-impedence measurements standards for bf and that can be off by a good 3-5%.
That said, I think we can all agree though that he is def too fat to compete by today's standards. So the fact that he is 200lbs in that pic doesn't really apply (apples to apples )to a bber of today's standards. That is the real point to my post. I am wondering if any of the would be bbers on here know of a 5'6" or 5'7" natural bber of today's standards who is over 200lb.
Lee Hayward, but at 4% he's 198. 220 he can see his abs, but he wanted to get shredded past that.
Look again sweetie.... He has rolls of fat. That doesn't happen under 8% even when a man bends over.
There is nothing wrong with a PLer being fatter than a bber. That is the way it is and mature lifters and bbers know this and respect it. That doesn't mean the PLer is a fat-ass. It means that he is a PLer.
You (on the other hand) seem to have very conflicting goals and no concept of what it takes to actually be a bber besides eating and lifting and getting "hyoooge".
You (on the other hand) seem to have very conflicting goals and no concept of what it takes to actually be a bber besides eating and lifting and getting "hyoooge".
I understand what it takes. I'm just at a point in time where my focus has to be on getting much bigger and stronger, hence my zealousness about it.
Lee Hayward, but at 4% he's 198. 220 he can see his abs, but he wanted to get shredded past that.
Ummmmm..... I thought it was understood. NATURAL bber. From my simple Google search Hayward is way too suspicious to hold up as a NATURAL bber. I might be wrong but try again. Who is competing in and winning in sanctioned NATURAL competitions not selling ebooks on getting ripted.
...BTW, I don't want to be less than 12% either. I could care less about being ripped, so long as I can see my abdominals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulmen
I understand what it takes. I'm just at a point in time where my focus has to be on getting much bigger and stronger, hence my zealousness about it.
Uhhhhh..... Conflicting statements maybe? When you have done a proper cut and competed on the stage THEN come back and tell us all about your LBM 'cause that is when you will know it. That is when you can call yourself a bber too.
In the meanwhile have fun being slow, fat and strong. That is a great goal too but your numbers might not be what you think they are.
Uhhhhh..... Conflicting statements maybe? When you have done a proper cut and competed on the stage THEN come back and tell us all about your LBM 'cause that is when you will know it. That is when you can call yourself a bber too.
In the meanwhile have fun being slow, fat and strong. That is a great goal too but your numbers might not be what you think they are.
Not conflicting. Like I said, right now I'm just focusing on getting bigger and stronger. Being shredded does not fit in right now.
You and Fullman are both claiming to be bbers. Him in his tagline and you in starting this thread. Looking at your AVIs I see that you both have a fairly significant amount of bodyfat already. I assume that since bbing is your goal that you understand you will have to go to under 8% of bf (as a male) in order to accomplish the goal.
If all you guys care about is gaining weight and getting stronge than hell yeah 200 lbs is possible. Even I can get to 200lbs and get HOOOOOGE arms and legs, etc. As a woman I put on 10lbs in 3.5 months and it was a pretty clean 10lbs. I could easily do 20 if I wanted to do it dirty.
But let's not confuse this with body building. My friends and I call this belly building.... I see it all the time in the gym.
Dear god what is with this firing squad. Me started a thread that says "Iwant to START to get into BBing" makes me a self proclaimed BBer?
I have stated numerous time, including the first Fing post that my goal is to be UNDER 200 lbs with AESTHETICS in mind. MY actual goal ends up beeing within 3% of that formula so stop telling me how I want to be. All I am saying is that the formula is telling me I have reached my genetic potential due to my small wrist measurement skewing it.
And how can you determine my bodyfat off of a picture that shows nothing but my chest? I was tested with calipers back at 193 at 15%. I am now 185 with a net loss of 1 inch on my waist since that measurement. Yeah, I am one fat fuck. My "uninflated" chest/back flexed measurement is 45" even, cold. My morning waist relaxed is 33". That is a drop of 12" without even bringing in my shoulder measurements. Someone fucking call jenny craig. You do not want to believe me fine, do not call me a liar.
Jesus, what did I ever do to you to have you on my ass like this.
For the last freaking time, I have only argued about the formula. Do not put words in my mouth and then berate me for what you accuse me of saying.
God damn, this is why i left this place to being with. Everytime you make a post it turns into a pissing contest that has NOTHING to do with my OP.
do yourself a favor and read my damned posts. I wanted to gain 15 lbs of lbm and drop to under 8% before I even think about a stage, That was put me around 185-190ish, before I even try to get contest ready which would put me closer to 170ish.
You all need to let this damned thread die before I get accused of wanting to be 250 lbs naturally.
Dear god what is with this firing squad. Me started a thread that says "Iwant to START to get into BBing" makes me a self proclaimed BBer?
I have stated numerous time, including the first Fing post that my goal is to be UNDER 200 lbs with AESTHETICS in mind. MY actual goal ends up beeing within 3% of that formula so stop telling me how I want to be. All I am saying is that the formula is telling me I have reached my genetic potential due to my small wrist measurement skewing it.
And how can you determine my bodyfat off of a picture that shows nothing but my chest? I was tested with calipers back at 193 at 15%. I am now 185 with a net loss of 1 inch on my waist since that measurement. Yeah, I am one fat fuck. My "uninflated" chest/back flexed measurement is 45" even, cold. My morning waist relaxed is 33". That is a drop of 12" without even bringing in my shoulder measurements. Someone fucking call jenny craig. You do not want to believe me fine, do not call me a liar.
Jesus, what did I ever do to you to have you on my ass like this.
For the last freaking time, I have only argued about the formula. Do not put words in my mouth and then berate me for what you accuse me of saying.
God damn, this is why i left this place to being with. Everytime you make a post it turns into a pissing contest that has NOTHING to do with my OP.
do yourself a favor and read my damned posts. I wanted to gain 15 lbs of lbm and drop to under 8% before I even think about a stage, That was put me around 185-190ish, before I even try to get contest ready which would put me closer to 170ish.
You all need to let this damned thread die before I get accused of wanting to be 250 lbs naturally.
Perhaps you need to be less sensitive. When I said that you both carried a good bit of bf% it was with respect to 4% which is what you will have to do to compete and win. It doesn't mean you are a fat fuck and if you are 15% then it is a good deal of bf in the world of bbing. So let's drop the "getting personal" shit and try to stay on topic.
I won't even address anything else as you are obviously reading with too much emotion at this time. It isn't personal.
I am doing a first cut now to 10% and see what that feels like. If I can do it and I look okay then I start a year long bulking and strength program. But a CLEAN one. Then we will do another cut and see what I have after that. If it is good, then I will learn how to pose and paint myself orange and all that silly shit....
Now before anyone gets their panties in a twist, dont take any of this shit personally:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waittz
I have no idea what you just said. But I think I am fine with it, im gunna go ahead and exit this thread before someone shows me a scientific formula that will tell me the day I die.
Ignorance is bliss.
He/She means that although the formula allows for the possibility of some genetic freak to throw it off, despite some of the rantings here there hasnt been any good argument that some of yall in this thread are genetic freaks.
The reason why there isnt a large argument for genetic freaks in this thread is because the data was gathered on people who were freaks themselves. Additionally, there are some unscrupulous people who still juice and enter natural shows. Ive seen it happen. So accounting for the possibility that even some of the nattys in the data makes it even less possible for you to gain 15lbs of lbm with your current stats.
You dont believe it but when you argue in disbelief, youre implying (read that word again: implying) that you can do better than the genetic freaks who might also be on drugs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxx
I want to see some of these people with an ACCURATE bodyfat test, not a "guess".....
Werd. Youd be surprised how much water and fat you are really carrying. Its like gaining muscle, you think that if you gain only 5-10 more lbs youll get 'there' but once you get there you realize its less than you thought. When getting lean, youd be surprised what it takes to get to a true 10%. Its no joke.
For those of you who used calipers, who used them on you? Was it just a trainer? If so, given that most trainers suck, what makes you think that they would be good at taking bf%? I can make bf% go all over the place if I want to and it takes a while with some really good calibrated metal calipers (not that cheap plastic shit) to get a decent estimate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank S
its simple.
either - someone has been sneaking me roids.
or - my bodyfat is about 30%.
for that calculation to be accurate.
Bingo. Unless youre on the Frank S Factor, your bf is probably higher than you think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waiitz
Me started a thread that says "Iwant to START to get into BBing" makes me a self proclaimed BBer?
So does this make you a BBer in training? A wannabe/aspiring BBer? PLer? Just wondering. And dont get all dramatic when you answer, I really want to know what you mean by this.
Quote:
I have stated numerous time, including the first Fing post that my goal is to be UNDER 200 lbs with AESTHETICS in mind. MY actual goal ends up beeing within 3% of that formula so stop telling me how I want to be. All I am saying is that the formula is telling me I have reached my genetic potential due to my small wrist measurement skewing it.
She said "IF all you guys care about is gaining weight and getting stronge than hell yeah 200 lbs is possible"
...and earlier she said "This whole obsession with going to 200lb or more at less than 6' height just boggles my mind."
As far as wrist measurement, yours just like mine at the ankle and wrist. You might want to reconsider that theyre small when compared to average wrist sizes.
Quote:
And how can you determine my bodyfat off of a picture that shows nothing but my chest? I was tested with calipers back at 193 at 15%. I am now 185 with a net loss of 1 inch on my waist since that measurement. Yeah, I am one fat fuck. My "uninflated" chest/back flexed measurement is 45" even, cold. My morning waist relaxed is 33". That is a drop of 12" without even bringing in my shoulder measurements. Someone fucking call jenny craig. You do not want to believe me fine, do not call me a liar.
Why not post some full shots then? In fact, post some on the BR thread and have a totally different crew give you their estimates.
Quote:
do yourself a favor and read my damned posts. I wanted to gain 15 lbs of lbm and drop to under 8% before I even think about a stage, That was put me around 185-190ish, before I even try to get contest ready which would put me closer to 170ish.
You argue with the formula but what Im saying is that if you want to gain 15lbs of lbm, that would put you at 180lbs of lbm which is beyond what natural BBers can attain with your frame.
Lets do some math since yours is off:
You claim to be 193 at 15% that is 28.95 of fat with 164.05 lbm.
You want to have 179lbs of lbm. Suppose you keep the 28.95lbs of fat in the process, youd be at 207.95 and 14% which is really good.
Now say from that 208 you want to cut down to contest shape at 4%, that means you want to cut 10% off of you which is about 21lbs. This puts you at 187lbs with 180lbs of lbm which is 4% and stage ready.
Where you are getting 170lbs I have no idea but by these calculations youd be defying natural human potential.
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BBer in training. I said 170ish which maybe i shouldnt of. But you have to accoutn for the dehydration. so I guess 180 would sound better. good detective work by the way
is it actually possible to have 30% bodyfat and visable abs, and wear size 32 pants? Im serious here, i didnt think that was possible.
Depends on how you store your bodyfat. For example, some chicks can be 10% or less up top but hold all their fat in their legs.
Additionally, it depends on the degree of ab visibility we're talking about. You may have very thick ab muscles that underestimate what your true bf% is.
You may carry more visceral fat than subcutaneous fat.
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"The strongest steel goes through the hottest fires."-Anonymous
"When you begin to believe nothing is heavy, all weights become light." -Rossbow
"Just remember, somewhere there is a little Chinese girl warming up with your max."-Jim Convroy
"It's a round hole, dammit. Everyone fits."--Anonymous Mod at Strengthmill
This would be a good point to add that most methods of assessing body fat have a lot more error than people seem to realize.
The +/-3% given to calipers is the *minimum* error that can occur. This means well-trained operator, *same* operator for each measurement, with measurements done as consistently as possible (same day of week, time of day, same diet, etc).
If those conditions aren't met, calipers are all but worthless as anything but a means of tracking progress. If you see skinfolds dropping or increasing, you can be sure you're losing or gaining fat. Otherwise, I wouldn't put much stock in them.
Even DEXA has a significant margin of error. When my wife had it done last year (her brother's a researcher w/ access to a machine) in January and August, she came out at 27% and 17%, respectively. It curiously showed that she'd gained 1kg of LBM, but we later found out that even with the same machine and same operator, that 1kg gain was still inside the machine's margin of error.
Simple lesson from this is that you really have no idea how much fat you carry until you start to drop it off. For awhile I'd assumed I was 14-15% ish; after some hard lessons, I had to re-evaluate that and consider that I'm more 18-20% in my current state. It's humbling when you actually start to diet, see the weight drop off, and realize just how much you're holding.
I think that's the problem with you guys. You just assume you're holding X% fat, but there's no accurate or reliable assessment going on. Actually work on dieting down to a legitimate <10%, and you'll start to realize you don't have as much LBM as you think.
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But for you, this is an okay thing. PLers are often at or over 30%. Fat and Strong is where it is at as a PLer.
No thanks! Not all of us
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcoholiday
yes, but anyone will have "rolls" if they bend over. Plus, you can see abs, and veins throughout the arm and bicep.
BF% is stupid, IMO. The only real purpose it serves is for the individual to tell if he's adding bf too fast or not. There are so many different methods, and people who jack up the tests, readings are skewed.
I still stand by my original guess.
Agreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kfisherx
Alcoholiday... I can see veins in my biceps and arms at 17.5% bf. Again that is hardly a good way to gauge. In any case I agree with you. Methods to read bf are all over the place. Personally I go by bio-impedence measurements standards for bf and that can be off by a good 3-5%.
That said, I think we can all agree though that he is def too fat to compete by today's standards. So the fact that he is 200lbs in that pic doesn't really apply (apples to apples )to a bber of today's standards. That is the real point to my post. I am wondering if any of the would be bbers on here know of a 5'6" or 5'7" natural bber of today's standards who is over 200lb.
Yes true, but I don't think they were talking about 200lbs contest shape, just 200lbs with abs lol.
Also what I was saying previously is I wanted to get to 205lbs with about 10% BF, this goal just happened to be about 5lbs more LBM than the formula told me I could have.
Now since the sample used were competitive bodybuilders, I'm assuming who were fairly lean, they would have dieted down and lost a few pounds of LBM. So of of these "genetic freaks" or whatever might have 180lbs of LBM at 5% BF in that condition. But before they cut down for a contest they may have had 190lbs of LBM at 12%.
So while it may not be possible to hold a certain amount of LBM in bodybuilding contest shape, it is surely possible to hold more than that at around 10% then right?
Also I think my guess is pretty accurate now after looking at that thread, I guessed 12, but could be as high as 14% I guess.
So while it may not be possible to hold a certain amount of LBM in bodybuilding contest shape, it is surely possible to hold more than that at around 10% then right?
Also I think my guess is pretty accurate now after looking at that thread, I guessed 12, but could be as high as 14% I guess.
That is the point that everyone is trying to tell you guys. It is the lesson I learned as well when I started this my first cut. Your LBM is what it is and the rest is water, fat, etc. I thought I had gain 7 lbs of leann mass in my last bulk but as I started to diet down I watched that go away pretty quickly. Is some of this LBM going away? Probably a little but not as much as I thought. So if you never diet down to a show percentage then it is very hard for you to know what that extra weight really is. You might be at that weight but how much of that is LBM versus other stuff? Probably less than you think.
It doesn't sound as if your goals are too far fetched though at least.
This would be a good point to add that most methods of assessing body fat have a lot more error than people seem to realize.
The +/-3% given to calipers is the *minimum* error that can occur. This means well-trained operator, *same* operator for each measurement, with measurements done as consistently as possible (same day of week, time of day, same diet, etc).
If those conditions aren't met, calipers are all but worthless as anything but a means of tracking progress. If you see skinfolds dropping or increasing, you can be sure you're losing or gaining fat. Otherwise, I wouldn't put much stock in them.
Even DEXA has a significant margin of error. When my wife had it done last year (her brother's a researcher w/ access to a machine) in January and August, she came out at 27% and 17%, respectively. It curiously showed that she'd gained 1kg of LBM, but we later found out that even with the same machine and same operator, that 1kg gain was still inside the machine's margin of error.
Simple lesson from this is that you really have no idea how much fat you carry until you start to drop it off. For awhile I'd assumed I was 14-15% ish; after some hard lessons, I had to re-evaluate that and consider that I'm more 18-20% in my current state. It's humbling when you actually start to diet, see the weight drop off, and realize just how much you're holding.
I think that's the problem with you guys. You just assume you're holding X% fat, but there's no accurate or reliable assessment going on. Actually work on dieting down to a legitimate <10%, and you'll start to realize you don't have as much LBM as you think.
Totally agree. I read that bodyfat thread over on Lyle's board a while back and it was very enlightening. Women especially underestimate their bodyfat. Your wife looked VERY lean when she got her 29% Dexa results (visible abs, etc). Most women would be at that level and be thinking they are 17%. Then when she got her 17% results she looked like someone who we commonly refer to as 12%. Basically it's just a number, and a very subjective one at that. How you "look" depends on how much lean mass you carry, where you carry your fat, etc.
Ya, I just don't want to get too fat when I move up to the next weight class in a couple years time haha!
Getting down to contest shape isn't really a goal of mine, but I guess it would be a good experience to try and do some day.
If you are not interested in competing in bbing then it isn't really important. And this goes for Frank too. If you guys like the way you look who cares what your LBM is? That isn't really so important except when you are bragging about it on a bboard and other people happen to know better. LOL!
eye opening, i had no idea that i could even be near 40% bf when i was 250lbs.. I thought i was closer to 20% as i could still see some abs and my legs still had veins in them.
I see it all the time in the gym.
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