Heavier work and dieting down?

[Chris Correia]

I've been working with heavier weights for the first time, following Starting Strength's beginner programming. Three years of "lifting weights" and virtually nothing to show for it. Time to actually get stronger.

Ate more. Gained 6 or 7 pounds in five weeks. Had fun adding weight to the bar. But, I had to look at trimming down, since I was too fat to begin with. That doesn't work well with martial arts.

So, I lightened up on the food and by the end of the next week, I was struggling with the heavier weight, even weight I handled well the previous week. Of course, that may also have been a point where I needed to back off anyway.

I'm wondering about how to balance working heavier (5 reps, per Rip's program) with dieting down. I assume I'm not going to be adding weight to the bar, but I'm not sure how to approach this with volume and intensity. I want to drop about ten pounds, so I'm figuring five or six weeks of lower calories.

Should I just hold steady at a bit lighter weight and lower volume, and only add teeny bits to the bar as I feel well able? Or what?

[StuWard]

It's hard to gain strength while trying to lose fat but it can be done. Just settle for slower gains.. Stronglifts.com has a program similar to Starting Strength, blatant ripoff actually, and they claim that people can lose weight on their program or gain weight according to their diet. Rippetoe, on the other hand says that losing weight on the program is hard.

[Chris Correia]

My unspoken alternative, as I see it, is lightening up on the weight and perhaps training at, say, 8 reps, thinking a bit more like a "fat loss" weight training program, rather than a strength program.

Otherwise, I'm wondering how to have the two -- heavier work and dieting down -- coexist temporarily so that I keep gains and stay in the strength mode.

[AFI82]

I've been doing lower reps/heavier weights for the last couple months and have managed to drop a few lbs. So long as I eat something 15-30min before I lift, I'll have the energy to do the work.

[bigDman]

You have to find the right amount of calories to keep strength and still loose wieght. I found low carbs and high protein and fat really helps. 120 g of carbs a day all in the two meals around the workout

[StuWard]

I agree with the diet suggestions. Training-wise the rep range shouldn't matter. Shortening your rest periods is common when trying to lose weight but that will hinder your strength increases. Better is to add a short HIIT session at the end of your workout, perhaps some barbell complexes. That will boost your calorie afterburn.

[Chris Correia]

Thanks for the input, guys.

What generally works good for me with fat loss and overall energy levels is simply to have a fairly even balance of protein, carbs and fat at each of four meals, and hitting about 1g/lb of total bodyweight daily with the carbs (veggies, fruit, some milk/yogurt and wheat bread). So, about 150-160 g daily of carbs; same amount of protein; the rest fat.

I was mostly curious as to the rep range, intensity and strength physiology and any implications with consuming lower calories.

Perhaps on lifting days (only two, per Rip's suggestion via email, due to recovery matters related to my age (47) and martial arts training) I'll bracket more carbs around the workout and not be aggressive with upping the weight on the bar. My preworkout meal is breakfast, so that's a good one to have some extra carbs anyway. In any case, I've entered into Rip's back off plan, since I think I was at that point anyway.

And I've already added in the HIIT afterwards.

Thanks again!

[StuWard]

If you're doing martial arts, 2 days probably is enough. I'm 51 and I find 3 days/week is right for me but I don't do sports. I've done 4 days/wk but I tend to overtrain. I don't count calories, I just keep it balanced and eat enough so I don't run out of energy with slow carbs before the workout, fast carbs and whey protein during and after the workout.

Stu

[Frank.S]

I dont just think its possible, i think its likely for most.

ive gone from ~245 to ~210 while gaining strength in the past few months. What ive found is that most people who diet, diet to quickly and then crash in terms of strength. If you only restrict food a minimal amount, and keep training intensity high, you should be fine.

[Chris Correia]

Originally Posted by Frank.S

I dont just think its possible, i think its likely for most.

ive gone from ~245 to ~210 while gaining strength in the past few months. What ive found is that most people who diet, diet to quickly and then crash in terms of strength. If you only restrict food a minimal amount, and keep training intensity high, you should be fine.

Frank, so how fast do you diet? What's caloric deficit do you incur and how fast do you drop weight? Two pounds a month, two a week . . .?

I know I've got to find my own point, but I'm just curious.

[PowerManDL]

Stop thinking of your work as sets to failure, for one. You can keep the intensity (weight on the bar) high and not have to increase your rep range.

Take your best set of five and do 5-8 singles with it.

Problem solved.

Otherwise, just diet down.

Frank likes to tell everyone that you can drop 50 lbs while still pulling 700 lbs regularly at 20 years old and that's normal for a drug-free guy if you just work for it, but for those of us that live in the real world it's not happening. Adjust your results accordingly.

[Frank.S]

1) i dont pull 700lbs.
2) 35 < 50
3) pmdl squated 425 x 2. Yet there could never possibly be something wrong with your training or nutrition or dedication. never. i mean, anything past 4 plates is pretty much unhuman.


Chris, i didn't count cals until the last 2 weeks here. Around 500 below, never hungry, lots of protien. Program didn't change one bit, i dont try to fail reps, but it happens through the week occasionally because im trying to progress in the weights. Training 5x per weekk, 3 lowerbody, 2 upperbody. works for me.

[Chris Correia]

Thanks, Frank.


Matt, thanks for that insight re failure. I'd never thought of working any singles, either. But, is a beginner allowed to do that??

I'm not sure why I wondered about diet and strength work (versus other weight training/higher reps) except that Rip emphasizes the need to eat in order to grow and progress and my cutting calories coincided with two crappy workouts.

So, Frank, if I'm doing some strength work now, then YOU have to do a gut-busting martial arts workout.

[StuWard]

Chris, you're "allowed" to do anything you want. Don't confuse "singles" with lifting the max that you can 1 time. That's for powerlifters in competition, not beginners. What Matt's talking about is using your 5 rep max and do 1 rep, wait 45 seconds, repeat. It's just a different way to break up your workout but the intensity is like doing 5 reps which is fine for a beginner.

Stu

[Chris Correia]

Originally Posted by StuWard

Chris, you're "allowed" to do anything you want. Don't confuse "singles" with lifting the max that you can 1 time. That's for powerlifters in competition, not beginners. What Matt's talking about is using your 5 rep max and do 1 rep, wait 45 seconds, repeat. It's just a different way to break up your workout but the intensity is like doing 5 reps which is fine for a beginner.

Stu

Thanks, Stu. I did understand what Matt meant. I was aware of doing singles like that, but it wasn't in my head to consider it strategically in this, or any other, particular case; wasn't sure when and why to use them in that way. Makes sense, to keep the intensity, but manipulating the volume and rest to make it do-able.

That never progressing with weight has been my problem/loss. Changing programs, dieting, etc, and always seeming to re-set at a similar weight than consistently, even if slowly, moving forward over time.

[GqArtguy]

When Im dieting down, I diet hard because I hate dieting for long periods of time. What I do in the meantime is to drop training the training frequency so that each session still feels good and I dont feel worn down.

Additionally, in each session, I cut the volume back
so that I can use the same weights, if not more, than I usually do or maintain bar speed. Since I diet hard, my volume is cut back more than most people.

But for example, when I do DB presses, I can press the 90's for a good working set of 8 reps and have done up to 12 reps. When dieting however, Ill do 2-3 sets of 2-3 reps with the 100's or so just to maintain tension. For squats, I do singles but I go up to 90% or so depending on energy levels.

So in short, my intensity doesnt really change, in fact it can go up but I make sure that the overall volume is cut back a lot.

[PowerManDL]

Originally Posted by Frank.S

1) i dont pull 700lbs.
2) 35 < 50
3) pmdl squated 425 x 2. Yet there could never possibly be something wrong with your training or nutrition or dedication. never. i mean, anything past 4 plates is pretty much unhuman.

1) I'm fucking with you. Relax.
2) For a totally raw lift, a non-max 425x2 to full depth is pretty damn impressive. Gear and "APF depth" has skewed the perception.
3) I'm fucking with you. Relax.