Heavier work and dieting down?

[Lost Dog]

Originally Posted by PowerManDL

Most people can get away with very informal autoregulating stuff. That's another topic, but basically it's "unplanned periodization" like I know I've talked about somewhere else recently, maybe on BR

You just set a performance benchmark, hit that benchmark, then reset and start another cycle.

This goal might be hitting 30 reps in 20 minutes, or it might be adding weight from week to week until you stagnate. Somethign to that effect.

I was going to post about that very subject. I got tired of the mental challenge of making sure that each and every lift was progressing in whatever measurement category, week to week. So, I recheck major lifts periodically.

If you know you're giving it your all (and are a good judge), have the confidence that you're getting stronger. Recheck every once in a while to make sure you're right, of course.

Some of these programs (for beginners) teach us to be anal about progression. That might be important when you don't know what's up, right?

I look at examples of what advanced lifters are doing, and see them change up the primary lifts (variations) from week to week. You have to have confidence, because you can't see on paper that this week's Incline Close Grip Bench represents a progression over last week's normal Bench Press.

[GqArtguy]

Originally Posted by Lost Dog

I feel a little trapped in the in between stage. I don't think canned programs are best for me and I'm not strong enough/trained enough/knowledgeable enough to jump right to the advanced stuff, either. I mean chains and bands and DE days are more than I think I need. I'm still benefiting from doing my reps and focusing on form, I think. I don't think I need advanced methods yet.

Right, so this is where goals come in. Do you want a bigger chest? Then train for it accordingly. Do you want a bigger squat? Then train it accordingly.

Setting a goal and then letting the rest of your workout either add to it or maintain other aspects will put you ahead of 99% of the population.

How the fuck do you know you made good gains on that? You made gains while you were on that program. In your training life, you've done 10 routines. You don't know what does what.

It says they all ate right, IMO.

I dont put much stock into those. Its easy to make gains when youre a beginner. I got good gains from Ian Kings Super Strength but that was my first real attempt at lifting as heavy as i could and eating correctly. I put 40lbs on it over a whole summer. It was a good program, but I would have done just as well from another linear setup with a lot of food.

Thats why I say to be more goal oriented and let that dictate your training. Getting a bigger deadlift will require a different training organization than training a bigger squat. But you can post your routine here and get it critiqued until you get a feel for this. Alco is a good example of someone relatively new but feeling his way through. Gotta keep him on a short leash though to keep him from becoming bro-tarded.

If you look at the 'whats your routine thread' youll see that mines based around a body recomposition goal, so my training will reflect that. If I changed my goal or dieting structure Id change accordingly.

Right now Im on a PSMF, so that means that I train once every 3-4 days with high intensity and low volume (sets and reps). When I bulk, Ill change things around. So think goals, and then everything will set itself up.

[PowerManDL]

Changing the lift weekly is a strategy that's really only effective for the really strong guys...guys that have pretty well exhausted other approaches.

What I do now is focus on a handful of lifts for 3-4 weeks, then re-assess. You don't have to change the exercise frequently if strength is the goal, but for size it might be wise to do it ever 3-6 weeks.

Otherwise just vary how you approach the lift. It doesn't have to be anything super planned out. Just focus on one thing for a little while, then switch to something else.

ETA: And Manny really hit it about letting the goals dictate what you're doing.

[Lost Dog]

Originally Posted by GqArtguy

Thats why I say to be more goal oriented and let that dictate your training. Getting a bigger deadlift will require a different training organization than training a bigger squat. But you can post your routine here and get it critiqued until you get a feel for this. Alco is a good example of someone relatively new but feeling his way through. Gotta keep him on a short leash though to keep him from becoming bro-tarded.

If you look at the 'whats your routine thread' youll see that mines based around a body recomposition goal, so my training will reflect that. If I changed my goal or dieting structure Id change accordingly.

Thanks. I'll do that.

[Chris Correia]

I love how threads sometimes evolve into other worthwhile discussion.

(That's a nice way of telling Roland to not hijack my f*****g threads!)

j/k

Truly, some good stuff. Thanks for keeping it coming guys.


I just always have the goal of simutaneously wanting to get lighter/leaner and stronger at the same time. That's probably been my problem; no living with a goal long enough to really see satisfactory results.

[GqArtguy]

Originally Posted by Chris Correia

I just always have the goal of simutaneously wanting to get lighter/leaner and stronger at the same time. That's probably been my problem; no living with a goal long enough to really see satisfactory results.

You can, you just have to train that aspect properly. Look at the light weight classes in OL (even in the US) a lot in the US dont budge more than 3% from their competition weight so they have to train around that.

What is going to sap your strength when dieting is 1) how much your caloric deficit is, 2) how well youre recovering (which is based on how much volume you do, sleep, stess, etc.), 3) how long youre dieting, etc.

If you try and train how you do at maintenance or bulking, then you wont get stronger in relative or absolute terms.

[kuri]

Originally Posted by Chris Correia

I just always have the goal of simutaneously wanting to get lighter/leaner and stronger at the same time. That's probably been my problem; no living with a goal long enough to really see satisfactory results.

By lighter you don't really mean weight but just changing body comp right?

In your case you've got to monitor your total activity level carefully because I assume you are doing several MA workouts a week if not per day right?

Take Matt & Manny's advice and prioritize. Matt gave good info on some sample methods for increasing strength. Really cleaning up your diet and using some tried and true strength programs, perhaps volume adjusted to allow for your MA training/leading classes would be what I would do.

[tkinsley]

Originally Posted by GqArtguy

Alco is a good example of someone relatively new but feeling his way through. Gotta keep him on a short leash though to keep him from becoming bro-tarded.

Am I the only one that caught this snark?

Great discussion, guys. Thanks.

From the chick side of the house, I gotta tell you, Chris, that dieting sucks the life out of me vis-a-vis lifting ability/endurance. I have ridiculously long sessions on Saturdays w my coach and really struggle with becoming lightheaded, etc after 30-40 mins, even with a fairly large-ish breakfast and a whey/gatorade w/o drink. Sucks. However, the technical stuff is first, so at least I'm not exhausted when I'm doing stuff requiring my full attention. Nothing I do is more than 5 reps (and most are 3 or less) at this point, either--a very good thing, too.

So, in reference to the original question you posed--what's most important to you? Prioritize your lifting accordingly, and front load your training with those.

My 2 cents.

[Simon C]

Originally Posted by tkinsley

Am I the only one that caught this snark?

No, I saw it too

[Chris Correia]

In considering all of this, I think the bottom line change in mindset I need is to work on getting stronger and more powerful through the iron, and work on my overall conditioning through my martial arts practices and GPP/warmup type work (what we call warmup can actually be half an hour of fairly intensive calesthenics, footwork drills, etc).

Up to this point, I've generally relied on my weight training for some conditioning effect, as well, but really did not get a whole lot stronger on basic lifts. I'm still in a transition on change of mindset.

This has all been really helpful discussion. Thanks also for chiming in, Chris and tk.

[PowerManDL]

Chris, very simple --

Block A

Focus on strength/power work
Heavy weight training, plyos if you care to do them
Maintain MA practice and conditioning work in a few shorter sessions, preferably stuff that's heavy/brief to fit w/ the weight training

Block B

Focus on conditioning and technique stuff
Maintain strength/power with 1-2 brief sessions

Alternate as needed.

[Chris Correia]

Matt: Excellent, easy to conceive summary. Very simple is good. I can be guilty of making things complicated, but I like simpler every year I get older. Your summary is basically how I've construed this thread; it's not a case of dropping heavier work during conditioning/diet times, just working it differently/maintaining.

Chris/Kuri, yes I mean leaner. Can you imagine me at 175-180? I was there four years ago. So, 155-160 has seemed leaner, but I'm still too fat, and don't have much muscle. Not wanting to get teeny, I've neither dieted down long enough, or in enough cycles, to get lighter, nor have I eaten enough long enough to add muscle and strength, not wanting to get fatter, even if I need the added muscle if only for metabolic purposes.

Matt, your summary/suggestion also fits in well with the diet/body comp goals. Drop fat during the B cycle and add muscle and strength during the A cycle.

There are a number of fellow black belts I know who got the fitness bug in their older years and started running more and doing longer races. I'd rather work on getting one and a half or twice my bodyweight overhead!

[kuri]

Chris, have you checked out Martine Rooney's (Parisi Speed guy) book Training for Warriors?

There are some good programs in there geared towards someone actively training MA.
Essentially he has his guys (Renzo Gracie team) doing one upper, one lower, and two metabolic days per week. All sessions are pretty brief with anywhere from 2x5 work sets up towards 5x6 on the big compound lifts, with no more than a few big exercises per day.

In your case I may do a 4 day push pull or 3 total body days per week, minimize gym conditioning work since your getting alot in MA training anyway. And I wouldn't worry about restricting calories at all - really cleaning up your diet and eating enough good things while hitting those big compound lifts hard is gonna get you far.

Hope this helps.

[PowerManDL]

Listen, what you really need to do is train in a basement gym in the bad part of town. It's the only way you'll get the Eye of the Tiger back.

You gotta be hungry. And you ain't been hungry since you got that belt.

[kuri]

You've obviously never been to Duluth Matt. It makes Detroit look like the Hamptons.

[Chris Correia]

Originally Posted by kuri

You've obvi