Props to teachers

Kaiser · 02-08-2008, 11:30 AM

Underpaid, under-equipped, under appreciated, yet vital to society.

Here's a quote, just for them:
"In a completely rational society, the best of us would aspire to be teachers and the rest of us would have to settle for something less, because passing civilization along from one generation to the next ought to be the highest honor and the highest responsibility anyone could have." -Lee Iacocca

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Cynic · 02-08-2008, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaiser

Underpaid, under-equipped, under appreciated, yet vital to society.

Here's a quote, just for them:
"In a completely rational society, the best of us would aspire to be teachers and the rest of us would have to settle for something less, because passing civilization along from one generation to the next ought to be the highest honor and the highest responsibility anyone could have." -Lee Iacocca

I like that. An oft used quote is "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." This was obviously said by someone who really didn't know shit, because there is a skill and a craft and a discipline to teaching and any college student will know the truth of that quote. Not everyone can be a teacher.

Flashy · 02-08-2008, 03:32 PM

I could not do what teachers do ... and thus, I have great respect for them.

Kirk Fredericks · 02-08-2008, 04:08 PM

My wife is a teacher. I have great respect and a healthy fear of teachers.

Phaedrus49er · 02-08-2008, 06:29 PM

My mom has been a teacher/administrator for over thirty years and keeps going. I made it one year (so far; never say never). I'll always have a soft spot for teachers.

Matthew · 02-08-2008, 08:11 PM

In some cases I think the second quote is very true.

That said, I have huge respect for most of my teachers. It's definitely a tough job, and most people would fail miserably at it by either having a breakdown or by just not doing their job with their students.

The school system in general is very flawed, but I think most teachers do the best with what they're given. That shows a lot.

FishrCutB8 · 02-09-2008, 05:51 AM

My wife is a teacher. I left because of the ridiculousness of parents and the restrictions that legislation have placed on the profession. The vow of poverty didn't help, either. Teachers should be making twice what they actually make.

FishrCutB8 · 02-09-2008, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew

In some cases I think the second quote is very true.

Tell me a place where that isn't true of other jobs. Slackers, time-card-punchers, idiots and malcontents exist in all jobs and professions. Find a place where they perform MORE and exist LESS than teachers.

Phaedrus49er · 02-09-2008, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FishrCutB8

My wife is a teacher. I left because of the ridiculousness of parents and the restrictions that legislation have placed on the profession. The vow of poverty didn't help, either. Teachers should be making twice what they actually make.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FishrCutB8

Tell me a place where that isn't true of other jobs. Slackers, time-card-punchers, idiots and malcontents exist in all jobs and professions. Find a place where they perform MORE and exist LESS than teachers.

+1

dragonflyjess · 02-09-2008, 11:00 AM

I worked as an asst. teacher in the public school system for 8 years and am now in the process of finishing my teaching degree. Here in Colorado Springs UCCS requires we get our 4 year bachelors then we proceed on for another year strictly for our teaching degree. I look forward to getting my own classroom, but as mentioned above the political part of it scares me. The pay I already know stinks, but I am doing it because I truly truly enjoy helping children become more knowledgeable and feeling more accomplished.

Mahler · 02-09-2008, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FishrCutB8

Tell me a place where that isn't true of other jobs. Slackers, time-card-punchers, idiots and malcontents exist in all jobs and professions. Find a place where they perform MORE and exist LESS than teachers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FishrCutB8

My wife is a teacher. I left because of the ridiculousness of parents and the restrictions that legislation have placed on the profession. The vow of poverty didn't help, either. Teachers should be making twice what they actually make.

Fish, those are excellent responses. Let me add my amen to that.

I taught for 15 years and it was the most fullfilling, yet menatally draining job I have ever had. Reason for leaving? Parents who seem to think their kids don't have to follow the rules.

My wife just resigned two weeks ago. She had a student last year that had 11 of the 13 signs for autism and tried to work with the parents to get him help. They were into complete denial and began to make her life a living hell. The kid is now in a large Junior High setting and can't make his way from one class to the next. The parents continued their onslaught of complaints and harassment this year with their other kids and it just became impossible for Ruth to function. She wasn't sleeping and began having digestive problems. These parents are guilty of child abuse, in my opinion, but the outcome is that a good teacher was lost.

Flowers and gifts have been coming to the house ever since she resigned, from the other parents who thought Ruth was the best teacher, ever.

Chiron · 02-09-2008, 01:13 PM

Teachers get the short end of the stick way too much. I worked as an aide for a couple years and have seen a lot of teachers. Some great, many good, a few average, and a couple that weren't any good. But most of the time the ones that really sucked were the students, the parents, and sometimes the administrators.

FishrCutB8 · 02-09-2008, 01:42 PM

Holy CARP! Mahler sorry to hear Ruth resigned. I know where her heart was--with the kids. Unfortuantely, parents like that are becoming more and more common and districts refuse to stand up to them because the ridiculous legislators have painted them into a corner. This is what happens when educational legislation is made without talking to educators: we lose good teachers.

My thoughts are with her.

BamaDave · 02-09-2008, 07:33 PM

I've been teaching full time since last August (college biological sciences) and really love it. I agree that it is mentally draining, and I don't have to deal with the crap that teachers of children have to endure. Occasional crap but not even remotely similar (plus the pay is certainly better - teacher salaries are simply absurd). My hat is off to our primary and secondary school teachers for what they do!

Kaiser · 02-11-2008, 09:23 AM

In Chicago, starting college professors at all but the top universities make less than or about the same as starting HS teachers. I would love to leave the business world and teach full-time instead of the part-time I've been doing for the last decade, but the pay simply isn't there.

[soapbox] What elementary and secondary school teachers make is almost like slave labor and should be criminal and is part of the reason I posted the quote to start this thread. My kids' elementary school teachers could make more than they do if they were to go out and become administrative assistants or (likely) McD's line workers than they do teaching. Our society is pretty f-ed up when we pay so little and hold in such low regard the people who we entrust our children to learn from. The economic wealth of education should be much more because the value of education should be higher. [/soapbox]

Mahler · 02-11-2008, 11:53 AM

Great thread, Kaiser.

Here are a few more thoughts:

"Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated." ~R.C. Savage

"A gifted teacher is as rare as a gifted doctor, and makes far less money" (Anonymous)

I could not find the exact quote, but I believe it was John Kennedy who bemoaned the sad state of affairs in a country that was willing to pay its teachers less than it pays the man who unclogs its toilets.

Phaedrus49er · 02-11-2008, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahler

I could not find the exact quote, but I believe it was John Kennedy who bemoaned the sad state of affairs in a country that was willing to pay its teachers less than it pays the man who unclogs its toilets.

Odd how similar the two jobs are...

Kaiser · 02-11-2008, 09:52 PM

That, Ben, is an amazing observation and works on many different levels. Kudos for seeing that.

OldGuy · 02-12-2008, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaiser

[soapbox] What elementary and secondary school teachers make is almost like slave labor and should be criminal and is part of the reason I posted the quote to start this thread. My kids' elementary school teachers could make more than they do if they were to go out and become administrative assistants or (likely) McD's line workers than they do teaching. Our society is pretty f-ed up when we pay so little and hold in such low regard the people who we entrust our children to learn from. The economic wealth of education should be much more because the value of education should be higher. [/soapbox]

I don't know, $43K to start coming out of school is not such bad change for a young person (Source). Going into this field with knowledge of what the pay scale is leaves, IMO, no room for you to bitch about it. If the pay scale was unaccecptable then choose another career.

Unappreciated for the job they do I agree with.

Phaedrus49er · 02-12-2008, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldGuy

I don't know, $43K to start coming out of school is not such bad change for a young person (Source). Going into this field with knowledge of what the pay scale is leaves, IMO, no room for you to bitch about it. If the pay scale was unaccecptable then choose another career.

Unappreciated for the job they do I agree with.

The pay isn't horrible relative to many other entry-level jobs (mid-20s here in North Carolina with full government benefits, and raises based on longevity and advanced education), but there are years of specialized education and certifcation (ongoing, no less) required to become a teacher, standards that many (much) higher-paying jobs don't require, not to mention the multiple hats worn and long hours involved, and I don't need to say anything about the huge, overall societal impact that teachers collectively have. More money goes into entertainment than education, which is a direct correlation to what society values. In fact, look at what lawyers make. There's more emphasis placed on milking others of their life savings because someone scuffed your Puma than earning the money yourself through education and hard work. Part of why I left teaching was the expectation from parents and administrators--not just the kids--to entertain and keep a bunch of hormonal teenagers quietly in their seats for 90 minutes at a time in some sort of trance. That's what religion and babysitters are for.

Phaedrus49er · 02-12-2008, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaiser

That, Ben, is an amazing observation and works on many different levels. Kudos for seeing that.

Thanks. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then

Kaiser · 02-12-2008, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldGuy

I don't know, $43K to start coming out of school is not such bad change for a young person (Source). Going into this field with knowledge of what the pay scale is leaves, IMO, no room for you to bitch about it. If the pay scale was unaccecptable then choose another career.

Well, they're not bitching about it, I'm bitching about it.

Your response is illustrative of the value our society places on education. Yes, the market determines what the teachers get paid and that was my entire point. The best and the brightest often go to other fields because of economic opportunities there that don't exist in the teaching profession and I know more than a handful of people personally who have left their initial profession, not because they didn't love it, but because of economic realities. As Ben has already pointed out, our society seems to undervalue education and those who provide it. Possible consequences: high crime rates, falling behind in global business and technology, a sense of entitlement.... but I'll leave it to statisticians like Leavitt to quantify those effects.

CPS has to pay salaries that are above and beyond what most school districts do in Illinois to attract teachers to some of the 'bad' areas in the city where few want to teach. The 'good' areas.... good luck getting an entry level job in those positions. It simply doesn't happen.

OldGuy · 02-12-2008, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Your response is illustrative of the value our society places on education.

How do you know what value I put on education in our society? You made a comment that a teacher could possibly earn more at Mickey D's than as a teacher. I just pointed out the "fact" that it's not the case.

If you so highly value education as you claim than make the move to be a teacher. But you've already $hown where your value $y$tem lie$.

Kaiser · 02-12-2008, 07:10 PM

You are correct; I don't know what value you put on education. Judging by your response, I can only guess. But the comments you made are often made by those who seek to justify the pathetic state of educational funding in the US.

Your fact was cherry picked to support your point of view, as mine was to support mine. Starting teachers at many elementary schools in Illinois make in the very low $20K. On top of that, they very often have to pay for supplies out of their own pocket due to budgetary constraints, which further degrades what they earn. If you are able to do the math (thanks to some teacher who taught it to you), calculate how much a line worker at McD's can make in a year. Simply because you are able to find a fact that contradicts my assertion, it doesn't invalidate what I said.

As I noted above, I've been teaching for over a decade. And I can tell you that I sure as hell don't do it for the money they pay me, which doesn't even come close to compensating me for my time and the gas I spend commuting. So, once again, you are incorrect in your assertion Bob. But in this case, it is a non-issue because I was commenting on elementary and secondary education in particular, not undergraduate or graduate.

OldGuy · 02-12-2008, 07:33 PM

Yep. pesky facts. They get in the way, don't they. But then, you said:

Quote:

My kids' elementary school teachers could make more than they do if they were to go out and become administrative assistants or (likely) McD's line workers than they do teaching.

They go to school in Chicago, correct? Well, if a line worker in McDonald's is making $43K what the hell do you pay for a happy meal?

Kaiser · 02-12-2008, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldGuy

They go to school in Chicago, correct? Well, if a line worker in McDonald's is making $43K what the hell do you pay for a happy meal?

Nope. Chicagoland has about 6 million people in it; less than half live in the city itself and way less than half of the grade school age kids in the area would go to schools in Chicago. Even if we did live in Chicago proper, it would still be a big assumption to assume they attended a CPS school. You were the one who brought in the CPS school salaries, not me.

OldGuy · 02-12-2008, 08:37 PM

So, a different approach - how much should teachers be paid?

tkinsley · 02-12-2008, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FishrCutB8

Tell me a place where that isn't true of other jobs. Slackers, time-card-punchers, idiots and malcontents exist in all jobs and professions. Find a place where they perform MORE and exist LESS than teachers.

Military physicians....
But they make a better wage.

Kaiser, I'm also appalled by the lack of importance placed on educators--these are the people molding the next generation, or keeping the dirty hippies in line in college and graduate school

. Paying them enough to keep them in a career they obviously entered for the love of it shouldn't even be a matter for debate.

Mahler · 02-13-2008, 11:56 AM

The one upside I can think of to the low pay is that it may have helped to populate the ranks with people who really want to teach and are willing to make the monetary sacrifice to do so.

While my personal position has always been to reward teachers commensurate with the important job they are doing, but one wonders how many dismal teachers we might have in our classrooms if the pay was so good that many would enter the profession for the monetary rewards only. Just a little devil's advocate thinking here. Your thoughts on this are welcome.

tkinsley · 02-13-2008, 08:23 PM

Kids are bratty... if you DON'T love it, I doubt the salary would be THAT much of an enticement. Speaking purely off my own cuff, here, but I would be willing to bet that the chaff would separate itself. Also, there could be pay tied to years in the job, so that perhaps initially the pay is as it is now and then it increases after you hit the 3-5 year mark... or something.

Hell I don't know. I'm speaking out of my ass on this one.