Okay, so this should get me lots of hate mail or kicked off the forums I guess.
I'm pissed off about fitness e-books. Check this out:
Most trainers can probably write a fitness "book" in few weeks. Edit and get some really amateur pics in it in another couple weeks. Since they aren't working with a publishing company, they can get it "on the market" in no time.
Then they sell it as an e-book for $20-$50. What does it cost the author once they've created it? Nothing, as far as I can tell. Then you download it and unless you want to read the whole thing online or take your lap-top to the gym with you, you print some significant sections of it (costing you MORE money in paper and expensive ink cartridges). I bought a really excellent new hardcover weight training book (which will remain nameless) online for like $15. It got mailed to my house and thats it.
E-books just seem like a massive scam to me.
An e-book should cost like $5-10.
I actually bought a fitness e-book by a certified M.D. once for about $4 and it was only slightly more primitive (in terms of pictures) than most of what I see being sold for 10 times that price.
Now... let the angry retorts commence.
I only buy them for specific purposes. Most suppliers of Ebooks will if you approach them arrange for a hard copy, its just easier to reach a wider market if done in this format. Publishing companies want a huge cut for minimal effort so why would you give them your money for that?
If ya dont like em dont buy em, quite alot do tho
__________________
BFG
"The time for talking has passed, actions are speaking louder than words."
Well...I will let you in on some insight since I have authored 2 of my own eBooks and have contributed to others. They are easy to publish through several online marketers (including the popular Clickbank).
I believe several eBooks are downloadable onto your computer and you CAN print them out. I print out the ones I purchase and place them into a binder (Inside Out being one). You can take that to the gym.
As far as the amateur pics...well, thats dependent on the author. Several authors know they should not and cannot use copyrighted pics, so they use their own photos in the eBook. The quality of the pics is up to the author and photographer.
As far as books you find at a Barns & Noble or Borders...there is just as much crap there (it just looks nicer) as the Internet. I admit, there can be some shady authors and companies putting out crap eBooks, that is why you have to research and listen to others. Tesimonials on a sales page are good, but sometimes I can be skeptical of them...especially when I never heard of the person making the testimonial or there is some sort of "kickback" for the testimonial. I can assure you, most authored eBooks are backed by notable professionals, and I don't know many real professionals that would put there name next to crap.
EBooks can be easy, but I find them hard to write...its hard to find original material to write about and try to make it stand apart from the rest of the stuff out there.
Anyway...just like any purchase...you should contemplate and look for reveiws. In this day in age with the Internet, resources are abound.
I can partly understand your frustration, but it really depends on who puts them together. Your comparison is really between apples and oranges though.
If a really good trainer can make me a better trainer, I would pay good money to consult with him. I have paid out in the thousands for consultants fees and travel to improve my business, so paying $50 is usually a big savings for me.
Books like that don't usually get mainstream publishers to buy them since they are kind of a niche market and can't sell the hell out of them, which is all publishers are in business to do. That means that the expert who has a message is going to rely on much smaller volume of book sales.
Also, when I buy something that is educational like one of JB's or Alwyn's books, I require my trainers to read it when I'm done so that we can all improve ourselves and stay on the same page. So now I've turned that $50 book into a miniscule investment compared to the increased revenues I can get by being a cutting edge facility. When you consider that Alwyn charges well into the thousands for his consulting services just for a day, getting a collection of his business tools which are comprised of his collective knowledge and experience makes it a no-brainer. Especially when you consider the ROI.
Yes, I will agree that there is a lot of crap out there too. My best suggestion is to stick with the names you know to produce quality work. Here is my list for trusted authors who produce e-books:
Bill Hartman (you will never lose by reading anything this guy has to say)
Alwyn Cosgrove
Craig Ballantyne
John Berardi
Eric Cressey (not even sure he has an e-book though, but I would probably buy one if he did)
Mike Roberston (see Bill)
Brian Grasso
Charles Staley
There are probably others, but these are people whose products I have truly benefitted from. I guess in your case you just really have to ask yourself why you need that e-book. I would say that comparing it too a published book is not a fair comparison though. Usually something with a big release like that is going to be watered down for general public consumption, so even books written by the same author who puts out e-books will have a different level of information.
My quick 2 cents. I worked at a publisher until recently. A book with a 4 color cover and 1 color interior (black) only costs around a $1 to print (less in larger print runs). The real costs of a book are editing, composition, cover design and marketing. Ebooks do not get around any of those costs.
All things being equal, an ebook SHOULD cost less than print. With mainstream ebooks, vs print books, we're starting to see that with some publishers. Not all. Some publishers (of paperback fiction, for instance) are selling the value of the content. They sell very few ebooks compared to print books. The sites that sell them want more royalty than Amazon does for print books. They also might believe that a cheap ebook will be pirated and then they lose out. I don't see why they think selling the ebook for the same cost helps with that... But, it seems to play into their thinking. This is just in the traditional print vs ebook market. No pictures, etc. People are buying the ebook specifically to read on their pda, ebook reader, phone, etc.
With fitness books (or finance, etc.), books can be self-published or published in small runs by sites such as t-nation. They will never sell as many books as a mainstream publisher will. But, they believe that a specific group will see value in the work and buy it.
I don't have any of Christian Thibadeaux's print books, but they are pretty expensive compared to John Berardi's Metabolism Advantage. The quality of printing of MA is likely much higher, too. Hard vs soft covers. More careful editing. Something tells me that Chad Waterbury's book is going to be pricey compared to a book you'll find at Barnes and Noble.
Now, if CT (or t-nation) knew that they'd sell a million, the price would be quite a bit lower.
Similarly with ebooks. The author puts in a lot of time, writing the book. It may seem slapped together, but without the benefit of a professional editor (or fleet or spell checkers and reviewers) it appears amateurish.
Granted, some may be slapped together in a week or so, but more than likely it's as good as a first or second draft of a professionally published book. The big difference may be that a professionally published work will be massaged and edited to put things right.
Also, it's not as inexpensive to sell ebooks as you think. Unless you just accept paypal and email them out to people, it can be a lot of work and money to set up the software/site to handle things for you. If you do choose to accept paypall and email everything manually, you're in for a lot of work, a lot of complaints, and a lot of mistakes.
One things that does surprise me is that most of these books are just pdfs. No passwords and no way to stop dishonest people from sending them around. In the traditional ebook market, there are all sorts of ways to make sure that the book isn't just posted on a web site for all to download (ie., steal). You'd have to break the copy protection to let someone else read it, or give them your personal codes to use.
Something tells me that Chad Waterbury's book is going to be pricey compared to a book you'll find at Barnes and Noble.
Of course it is. And if the quality of the book doesn't justify its cost, then Chad's going to have a lot of books sitting around unsold.
The main advantage to self-publishing (I know this is straying off the topic of ebooks, but I'm building to a point) is that you control the message and you control the price.
Once you agree to a contract with a traditional publisher, you agree that you'll accept the editorial judgment of the editor and the visual judgment of the designer. You're allowed to argue if you feel strongly about the editing or design, but it's not good for your career to do that too often.
So a traditionally published book is a collaborative effort -- it's the author's vision, tweaked by an editor (usually for the better; I've been on both sides of book editing, and I've never seen an editor make one of my books worse), visualized by a designer (I have no visual instincts of my own, so I'm always in awe of the people who do), pushed into retail outlets by a sales force, and then (if you're lucky) publicized by marketing professionals.
In exchange for all that collaboration, the author gives up total control of the product, including its price. I can't sell my book for $40 if someone can pick it up on Amazon for less than half of that. And while I can help draw attention to the book, I'm really counting on the publicity professionals to get it into the hands of editors, reporters, producers, and anyone else who can give it a plug.
I haven't even mentioned the issue of compensation, particularly the role of the agent in getting all this going in the first place.
Some of the people who're self-publishing -- and now I'm including ebooks in the discussion -- don't have access to traditional publishers. So doing it yourself is an easy choice if it's the only choice.
But most of the people mentioned do have that access, or could have it if they wanted it. They choose to self-publish for a variety of reasons.
First, the topic might be something that fits into such a small niche that mainstream publishers won't be interested. Second, if they know exactly who their target audience is and how to reach them, it might make more sense for them to sell their product directly to that audience, cutting out the middleman.
The toughest part of self-publishing is that nobody pays you up front to write the book or ebook, and all the expenses are yours alone. The upside is that you get to keep all the money once it's in the marketplace.
The way traditional publishing works is that a publisher gives the author an advance against royalties. In effect, they're lending you money, which you only have to pay back if the book sells well enough. Your share of the book's revenues, typically, is 10% of the cover price for the first 5,000 hardcovers sold, 12.5% of the next 5,000 sold, and 15% of the cover price for the rest.
If it's a paperback, it's usually 7.5% of the cover price, although that goes up when you pass a certain threshold.
The agent, meanwhile, is getting 15% of all this money, and if he's doing his job, he's worth at least that much.
You aren't entirely free of other expenses with traditional publishing; in my area, the author is responsible for photos and for setting up whatever web presence is needed. Some authors also hire their own publicists, because the publisher doesn't try to promote every book it puts out.
In my case, it makes more sense to go the traditional route on most of my projects. For others, especially guys with a substantial audience that congregates around a specific site (like Chad Waterbury and T-nation), it makes more sense to self-publish, assume all the risk and control all the revenues. He knows exactly where his readers are, and a traditional publisher is unlikely to help him broaden his audience. They could get the book into stores, but then it's just one book on a shelf with dozens of others, and with dozens more coming out every year to compete for that little place on the shelf.
I know this is long-winded, but I figure as long as the questions have been raised, someone must be interested ...
Well from looking at teh Ebook we are bringing out we are offering people the chance to buy some in print format and even wipe clean (Its recipe book) But to be honest the level of net profit on them hardly seems to reflect the time investment we have made into it in the first place.
There are online publishers that are out there who will market the material as well but then you are looking at almost a 50% cut of the profits for some.
With technology now though who really needs another book to clutter up the shelves?
It also means by having an ebook you can also offer the option of selling additional smalle modules to insert into the main book to increase its size so it works better.
But Lou really hit it on the head, in the fitness market unless you have the likes of Roedale behind you chances are you wont get much of an upfront payment to cover production costs.
it would be interesting to see if those ho have done Ebooks and traditional books what % of sales they made on each ie what were the public best interested in?
__________________
BFG
"The time for talking has passed, actions are speaking louder than words."
Something tells me that Chad Waterbury's book is going to be pricey compared to a book you'll find at Barnes and Noble.
Of course it is. And if the quality of the book doesn't justify its cost, then Chad's going to have a lot of books sitting around unsold.
I'm afraid my point didn't come across correctly. I was trying to point out that books with niche markets can often justify higher prices. Especially when that price is compared to the price of a training or consulting session (or series of them) with the author.
Unfortunately, I never got around to that part of my point.
Apparently, I'm one that should never self publish my own ebook... I need an editor.
Come on you are letting him down, he wants angry hate mail.
__________________ 2009: No races, No times. Slow year. So, now you're 96 cals short. You're now in starvation mode. Doomed. - LostDog
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There it is! The answer to how to protest against a business. I know there's a few I will never patronize ever again, to include Dick's/Sportsmart/Sport Authority online: biggest bunch of fck ups ever.
I won't read a pdf on the computer - if I do get an e-book, I print it out. I prefer a printed book.
But I do understand - it's less expensive to make a pdf file then to have a book printed.
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The only time the pricing thing really gets me is when you can get the "book" or "ebook" for the same price example. To me that's just stupid. There's about 5 people in the whole damn world that would rather have an e-book than a bound one. I don't get why they'd be the same price. There may be a very good reason, but I don't get it.
The one thing that I will give the e-books is that it's the authors feelings\thoughts. You get exactly what the author thinks\does on the subject and fuck everyone else. It's not watered down or printed to the masses, this is it.
We have to accept that certain authors aren't going to make a lot of sales for this stuff and they have to price to make it worth their time, whatever that may be. For the most part their time isn't worth my money. But as an avid subscriber to newsletters, when a sale comes along I take a peak.
in the fitness market unless you have the likes of Rodale behind you chances are you won't get much of an upfront payment to cover production costs.
it would be interesting to see if those who have done Ebooks and traditional books what % of sales they made on each ie what were the public best interested in?
One of the interesting aspects of self-publishing (whether it's an ebook or a printed book) is that you can make a lot more money with a fraction of the sales.
I remember, when I was at Rodale, doing a book deal with a popular trainer. The money up front wasn't great, and I was almost apologetic about it. I explained that he could make or break his own project by building an audience for it. Then, if it sold beyond initial expectations (i.e., if it made a truckload of money for my company), the real payoff would be that he'd get a significant advance for his next book. At that point, he'd be "in the computer," meaning everyone in the industry would know how well his first book had sold, and there'd be competition to publish his next title. It's sort of like being a free agent in baseball: Once people start competing for your services, you get paid more than your track record suggests you should get paid.
But I didn't try to sugar-coat the reality that it would take years for this thing to pay off for him.
The trainer then laughed, and told me how much money he'd made off a short, self-published book that he'd knocked out and put on the market in just a few weeks. It was a lot more money than he could've hoped to make off the project we were talking about, no matter how well it sold.
And he'd started making that money just weeks after he'd come up with the idea for the book and sat down to write it.
By contrast, it took me three full months to write the proposal for Lift Like a Man, the book I'm doing with Alwyn and Cassandra. It took another couple of months for my agent to get it to our editor, and another few months for the contract to be finalized and signed by everyone.
I don't know how typical that is -- maybe other writers are more efficient and get paid faster -- but in my experience it can take a year or more to go from coming up with an idea and starting a proposal to signing a contract and actually getting the first part of your advance.
It works fine if you're already in the business and also getting advances and royalties on previous projects. But if you're just starting out and investing a big chunk of time and money on a book, a year is a long time to wait for that first check.
So there are plenty of compelling reasons to go the DIY route. If it's not on Amazon, there's only one price, and it's the price you set. If the information is perceived as having value to your audience, they'll pay your price.
I know several guys who went the traditional-publishing route and ended up regretting it. Even in a book, the format can change the type and quality of information you offer. Since the publisher is paying you, the publisher ultimately has control, and some guys are almost embarrassed by the way their books turn out.
Money-wise, it's all over the board with traditional publishing. Some guys get offered such lucrative deals that there's no sense turning them down. Even if no one buys the book, they still have their careers as trainers, they're free to put out their own products if they want, and they're $50,000 to $100,000 richer.
Rodale is a unique company in that it needs a certain number of fitness titles a year for its direct-to-consumer sales channels. Those books have to be big, and they have to have broad appeal. They don't have to be good. (I don't mean that to sound like a shot at my former employer; anybody in the company, speaking honestly and off the record, would admit that the actual quality of the information and presentation don't determine the success of the books. Remember, they only exist to supply the pipeline of one specific sales channel. Success in the retail market is just icing on the cake.)
Bottom line, the decision to self-publish or go the traditional route is more complicated than it looks from the outside.
Remember, they only exist to supply the pipeline of one specific sales channel. Success in the retail market is just icing on the cake.)
huh tell me about it! because of that pipeline they decided not to put us on the front of the magazine and write the article based on my training that they paid for! Bunch of numpties, I didnt care as I got the results but it must have cost them a fortune! Shame in the paperwork they never specified that we must not mention that we wouldnt touch said pipeline to prove a point
Thanks for that write up Lou that was really helpful.
Have you come across or had any dealings with these smaller publishing companies that will take a small percentage of book sales in return for exclusive publishing rights? Allegedly they leave all editorial and formatting to you. All they do is deliver an end product be it good or bad.
__________________
BFG
"The time for talking has passed, actions are speaking louder than words."
BFG there distribution companies out there that will get it into the pipeline for you for a smaller fee.
One of the things that stuck me at the first part of the thread was the contention that writing an e-book was a "couple of week task". Unless it's 5 pages long that's and you don't care about your grammar, presentation, clarity of thought and have all day to dedicate to the cause I don't find this true.
I heard Douglas Adams speak a long time ago and he said in his talk that, "It's easier to say you have written than to actually write." At first I didn't get it but as I got older I found this to be absolutely true. As an academic exercise pick a topic that you are the most passionate about and try to write 8,000 - 10,000 words on the subject.
If it has a nice presentation, respectable grammar, and clarity of thought I stand corrected.
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Past performance is not indicative of future success.
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Have you come across or had any dealings with these smaller publishing companies that will take a small percentage of book sales in return for exclusive publishing rights? Allegedly they leave all editorial and formatting to you. All they do is deliver an end product be it good or bad.
I know those companies are out there, but I've never dealt with them. JP told me about a company that does all the printing and fulfillment, so you never have to worry about inventory. They give it an ISBN (a book's ID number) and sell it on Amazon.
If I ever went that route -- it would have to be a project that's better to handle myself than to go through a traditional publisher -- I probably wouldn't want the book available outside whatever channels I chose. If it's on Amazon, then I'd have a retail track record for a book I never intended to sell in retail.
The retail track record is everything for an author -- you absolutely don't want your name on anything that would bring your average down.
A rant about fitness e-books
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