Sometimes censorship masks itself as efforts to maintain civil discourse. After reading the "Current Events" section rules, I'm both amused and nauseated. I find it amusing that the irony is lost; I'm nauseated by the implications.
Really, this forum is fascinating. All the earnest posts and feigned sincerity. It's incredibly well-crafted. Not messy like the real world of discussion. That's good marketing.
How do you categorize this thread symbolic?
1. Feedback
2. disagreement
3. debating channel
4. unnecessary uproar over nothing
If is it 1 or 2, you could add to that thread itself, instead of starting a new thread in my opinion. If it is 3, then good, we can have some interesting view points. But again that should go under the CE forum. if 4, I don't know.. may be we should ignore the thread then.
Personally speaking, I enjoy reading your posts. You have a good debating style where you don't slam people who hold views/opinions different than your own. You pick on good points and illustrate them with good findings and research. But.. please take it as a genuine and well meant feedback.. you ignore listening to other people when they are as well loaded with good findings and research. Good part about that is, your un-willingness to listen brings up a lot of good points from people who put in lots of effort in making you see their points.
Also if you would care to explain, what do you mean by "feigned sincerity"? Don't know if you have a tone of sarcasm when you say "well-crafted" and "good marketing". If not please explain your reason for saying those as well.
Hmmm, not with you mate....what's your point? That this is the Stepford Forum? Where does that impression come from? I avoid the CE forum myself - contrary to popular thought, no one is entitled to an opinion, everyone is , however, entitled to an informed opinion. And while I try to be open minded and as well read as possible - I'm ignorant of most of the topics there.
Whenever you try to judge others motivation/sincereity, remember it's not always best to judge others by yourself/your experience.
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Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. -- Sidney J. Harris
I agree as well. I ventured over there every once in awhile, and even agreed to the new rules. Afterwards, I regretted doing so and haven't really been back over.
Okay, I'll bite. Why am I getting beaten up today?
Symbolic, you are welcome to come participate down there if that is something you are interested in. Some people may balk at the rules, but things haven't been nearly as contentious since I created them.
You're obviously trying to get some kind of reaction from me with your "feigned sincerity" comment. You and I have exchanged some PMs where we discussed these ideas at length. Do you really feel that it is insincere?
If so, I can do nothing else to convince you. I doubt this forum would be as popular if we let every post through. We have to make judgement calls as to whether or not something is going beyond contribution and just trying to get people riled up. If someone is being uncivil, chances are likely that we won't let it stay up either.
All this being said, in taking those chances, and in being human, sometimes we make mistakes, but the intent from front to back of this forum is to provide a community that promotes civil discourse. The rules have to be much stricter down in the CE forum due to the nature of the content. I couldn't be more sincere, so I don't know where your attack is coming from, nor where its headed. Should be talk in private so you can vent about something specific?
TVF, why did you regret agreeing to the rules? I thought they were laid out rather logically. Do you have a suggestion for how I might improve them? I am always open for suggestions. Even if I don't use them I want to hear them.
I think - and this is no way a reflection of symbolics overall character - in regards to this thread you're being a bit of a douche.
In discussing political issues, it is ESSENTIAL that a level of civility is maintained at all times. When civility fails, so does discourse. Without rules demanding that you be polite (and you can still be whitty and scathing whilst being polite), conversation regarding political, religous and other such "current event" issues would be impossible. It would simply be a forum filled with people slamming each other.
It's not censorship - you're allowed to say whatever you want. You just have to do it politely. Don't like it? Don't post there. Don't read there. Certainly don't come and bitch about it here.
What would it be like without these rules? here's an example:
Symbolic, stop being such a whiny little pussy and suck it up. That's what the forums are like you stupid, dumb fucking idiot. I can't believe you would even think to start such a moronic post, wasting my time and insulting JP, who has been more than gracious in allowing you free use of this site. Asshole.
I hope you see my point.
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I'm not sure if talking down to someone in a civil manner is any better than doing it rudely. A dick with a flower on top is still a dick.
Unless it's Ron Jeremy...then it may be a sign that the dick needs medical attention.
I believe the rule of thumb I use for recreational sports applies here....if the activity isn't paying the bills then there is no need to get panties in a knot over it.
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Take care of your lawn
and
the grass will be greener on your side of the fence
Sometimes censorship masks itself as efforts to maintain civil discourse. After reading the "Current Events" section rules, I'm both amused and nauseated. I find it amusing that the irony is lost; I'm nauseated by the implications.
Really, this forum is fascinating. All the earnest posts and feigned sincerity. It's incredibly well-crafted. Not messy like the real world of discussion. That's good marketing.
(Let's see how long this post lasts.)
OMG that's funny!!! Thanks for posting where I can use an emoticon!
:p :p
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Today's mighty oak was once just some nut who held his ground!
I'm not sure if talking down to someone in a civil manner is any better than doing it rudely. A dick with a flower on top is still a dick.
I agree with G. There are instances in CE where people can be real assholes by talking down to others. Then there are instances in CE where posters call other posters "stupid," which is uncalled for.
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"If it felt good, you didn't push hard enough. It's supposed to hurt like hell." - Dean Karnazes' track coach, Ultramarathon Man
"My baby's soft and sweet, somewhere between a flower and a gun" - fiction family
Yes JP, part of my motivation for posting this thread was due to having a benign comment deleted from the "Why 50% of all trainers suck" thread. My post was "Aerobics!" I thought it was a mildly amusing and innocent comment on the contentious nature of the thread. Although I'm clearly not a regular here, it's good to see that I'm not the only one who stirs up controversy over reasonable, even if debatable, points. It was also an attempt at self-deprecating humor for those that seem to dislike my infrequent posts on a recurring theme.
In my attempt to understand why my post was deleted, I looked for evidence of policies about posting on JPFitness. The Current Events forum was quite suggestive to me about inconsistencies, even hypocrisy, over editing of posts. For instance, JP tolerates, and even seems to enjoy, images of almost-nude women on the NSFW thread. That strikes me as potentially offensive to anybody that takes the objectification of women seriously. Moreover, it's hardly professional or fitness related. While "spammers" get criticized here, others are free to sell their products with the frequency of an infomercial. Why is this not considered "spam?" Because JP knows the source or has a financial interest? The annual fitness retreat is described as a gathering of fitness enthusiasts that partake in a weekend of camaraderie. But, you can all buy the DVD because JP is selling it.
Without getting into every detail right now, I've noticed lots of mixed messages here. While I don't post very often, I frequent the site looking for fitness information. I see the same folks saying basically the same things without getting criticized; I see an increasing commercialization of the site with fitness industry "gurus" who seem to be linked to one another through other business channels; some forms of clearly controversial posts are tolerated or celebrated while others get criticized or deleted; etc..
Running a public Website entails certain responsibilities in order to maintain the integrity of an open and free Internet. JP should make the forum private if he intends to capriciously censor the content. As a private site, there's no presumption of openness. With a public forum, there is an expectation that one can speak freely. Insults can countered or ignored. Controversial positions can be debated or ignored. The slippery slope of censorship undermines, rather than facilitates, the kind of community that I'd like to see.
Like always, folks should be free to disagree, make insults, or respond in any way they deem appropriate. I'd use Supreme Court precedents as my guide here. Other than not allowing incitement of violence and libel, free speech should reign.
And now, believe it or not, I'm going to lift weights and then do some HIIT. Yes, that makes up a large part of my workouts. I've learned a few things here.
Like always, folks should be free to disagree, make insults, or respond in any way they deem appropriate. I'd use Supreme Court precedents as my guide here. Other than not allowing incitement of violence and libel, free speech should reign.
Deleting your posts does not count as unconstitutional infringement of your rights. That dog won't hunt, ace.
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"If it felt good, you didn't push hard enough. It's supposed to hurt like hell." - Dean Karnazes' track coach, Ultramarathon Man
"My baby's soft and sweet, somewhere between a flower and a gun" - fiction family
Running a public Website entails certain responsibilities in order to maintain the integrity of an open and free Internet. JP should make the forum private if he intends to capriciously censor the content. As a private site, there's no presumption of openness. With a public forum, there is an expectation that one can speak freely. Insults can countered or ignored. Controversial positions can be debated or ignored. The slippery slope of censorship undermines, rather than facilitates, the kind of community that I'd like to see.
Let's look at some of the "open" forums where everything goes. MH, it's all trash. TNation....lots of people appearing to talk crap (though there is some ok content at times). I can't speak for everyone else, but I know I can come here and refer people here because I trust the content and the folks who post here. Ads? A few, but those folks are accepted members. Don't like them? You don't have to read them.
You mention the "50% of the trainers" thread. I read part of it, came to a conclusion and skipped the rest of it. The NSFW? Those are clearly marked. CE is clearly marked with a note of what is and isn't ok.
On one side of the coin if JP removed all guidelines as to what is acceptable I'm sure things wouldn't change that much but there is always a chance it could turn into a MH. Not sure about you, but if I was looking for a gym and the forums contained a bunch of trashtalking nonsense I'd probably look elsewhere. This these forums are on his business website it's ok for him to do as he pleases. When I maintained a forum at work we did the same thing before management decided to open them up. After a few months we lost our core group; after alienating a lot of good people management decided to close them for good.
Although I'm clearly not a regular here, it's good to see that I'm not the only one who stirs up controversy over reasonable, even if debatable, points.
Lord knows Ive pissed off people on this forum :P
Quote:
The Current Events forum was quite suggestive to me about inconsistencies, even hypocrisy, over editing of posts. For instance, JP tolerates, and even seems to enjoy, images of almost-nude women on the NSFW thread. That strikes me as potentially offensive to anybody that takes the objectification of women seriously.
Yes but those threads are marked. If they bother you, then dont open them.
Quote:
Moreover, it's hardly professional or fitness related.
Which is why they are in the OT forum.
Quote:
While "spammers" get criticized here, others are free to sell their products with the frequency of an infomercial. Why is this not considered "spam?" Because JP knows the source or has a financial interest?
Because unlike spammers, many of the people coming out with a product have given a lot of free advice publicly and via PM.
Not sure what your beef is about the Retreat DVD.
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"The strongest steel goes through the hottest fires."-Anonymous
"When you begin to believe nothing is heavy, all weights become light." -Rossbow
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"It's a round hole, dammit. Everyone fits."--Anonymous Mod at Strengthmill
Yes JP, part of my motivation for posting this thread was due to having a benign comment deleted from the "Why 50% of all trainers suck" thread. My post was "Aerobics!" I thought it was a mildly amusing and innocent comment on the contentious nature of the thread. Although I'm clearly not a regular here, it's good to see that I'm not the only one who stirs up controversy over reasonable, even if debatable, points. It was also an attempt at self-deprecating humor for those that seem to dislike my infrequent posts on a recurring theme.
I agree with you, there. That would have been a funny post to see.
Really wanted to come on board but there doesn't really seem to be any CE comments there? There are some points in there BUT nothing's perfect and this is about as close as I've found as far as forums goes.
Symbolic,
Your post was deleted because it I felt that the only reason you posted it was to push Alwyn's buttons. Alwyn is not paid to post here, is an excellent source of knowledge, and your occasional arguments with him typically result in him pulling away from the forum. I just didn't even want to start that war. Alwyn's been through enough shit lately to have to deal with someone who has an agenda with him. I don't apologize for it in the least.
On the flip side, I do appreciate some of the discussions that you have brought up. I wish you were a more frequent contributor, but it appears that the only times you wish to contribute is to slam people like Adam, Alwyn, etc, so you can understand that a few people might be a little defensive of them.
SPAM is unsolicited promotion, which is unwelcome. If I have a fitness expert in here to is contributing free content to my members, I don't have a problem with him/her promoting their for-pay services. I make nothing off their sales (an implication I resent actually), but I don't begrudge a fellow professional making a few sales from people with whom they've established some credibility.
As for my DVD, I didn't produce one for the first three summits, but I was constantly berated for it because those who could not attend could not learn from the presenting experts, so I finally produced on. You should watch it. It is quite good, and the reviews I have gotten back so far have been excellent! I hardly push it though, so I don't get the insult. I put up one announcement about it, and one thread in which people could respond. It is considerably less expensive than some of the work my peers have produced, and I paid a significant amount of money and time to get it prepared. No spam emails, no pop-ups, no push to buy... Just an announcement that it's ready if you want one. I may be trying to make a little money off of it, but I'm hardly sleazy about it.
Just for the record, not ONE of my summits has broken even yet. I'm not trying to make a lot of money off of it. I'm really just trying to pay back all the expensese of running one of these. If I sell enough to break even I'll be happy. I would need to sell about 50 of them to come close.
You seem to have this idea that I'm something more than what I actually am. I'm just a guy who owns a gym in a small city who makes an okay living, happily married for 14 years, raising three kids, posting in my underwear. I'm no powerbroker fitness magnate trying to trick people into spending their hard-earned dollars on anything my products to make me wealthy. You might be surprised at how generous I - or many other members of this group- am. I give away a lot more than I earn. Hell, this is the first time I have even set up something to be sold on this forum in 4 years. Up to now, it's all been about the discussion.
I'm pretty open about my situation, as you can see. I have nothing to hide at all. Would it help you to know that I do a little Irish Jig whenever I get an email telling me about a new sale!
Look, I'm being pretty real with you here, which frankly I feel that I always am. I can't posslbly please everyone. We keep tweaking thing as we go along. The bottom line is that I have control over this forum. Although open discourse is desired, it is not a democracy, but a benevolent dictatorship, in which the dictator allows a lot to pass through. If I feel that something is just trying to start a fight, rather than let it run its course and lose several regular posters in the process, I feel it is better to nip that off at the bud. It's not so much about being a police force, but a quality control. I want a friendly place that is welcoming, where cliques are held down to a minimum (by me). Sometimes stuff still slips through,
Symbolic, if you don't feel like I make a difference, I will let you vent to your hearts' content.
My first passion is fitness. I love to learn about it, I love to teach it. I built this forum with that philosophy in mind first. I make friend easily and have gathered around me an amazing group of people for whom I'd do anything.
If you knew how many sponsors I turned down to protect the integrity of this site. Just sit back and look at how much work I do in here with no hope for reciprocation, and maybe you'll have a change of heart.
On the flip side, I do appreciate some of the discussions that you have brought up. I wish you were a more frequent contributor, but it appears that the only times you wish to contribute is to slam people like Adam, Alwyn, etc, so you can understand that a few people might be a little defensive of them.
Anyone else think that Symbolic is John Basedow w/ a beef with Alwyn, Adam, etc.
Censorship
:p 
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