The New Rules of Lifting for Women: The Modifications - If you're older, heavier, hurt, stiff, have a chronic condition or are starting over after a long time away.
I'm totally new here so that's why I titled it an 'impertinent' suggestion.
My story (briefly): I've always been 'horizontally challenged' since I hit puberty. My weight climbed to nearly 400 pounds by the time I was 42 years old. I also had the challenge of being in a terrible car accident where the car flipped over five times on its' roof in a ditch. My left leg and hand were broken. Took 8 1/2 months to recover from wheelchair and cast to crutches and cast to a cane and a shriveled left arm. After the physical therapists dismissed me because I was so heavy and still in a great deal of pain I found a trainer and began to work out while still on a cane.
The work outs got me off the cane and stronger. I got back more function in my hand than I probably would have if I'd just sat on my butt "recovering". But then I hit the limits of benefits I could get from the "Barbie weights" and asked my trainer to step up the poundage. He did so by only about five pounds at a time. I never got to more than 20 pounds above where I started.
After a time I got frustrated with constantly telling this trainer (a long time lifter himself!) that I wanted to go HEAVIER! I began training with this man's brother when my trainer sort of 'disappeared' and wasn't contacting his (already paid up!) clients. The brother was a step ahead because he didn't think I should be working with Barbie weights and he'd watched me as I got stronger, had a lap-band placed, lost 146 pounds, had 15 pounds of skin removed from my stomach and recover from all of this.
Then he got flaky too! Not about the lifting entirely but just in his old fashioned mini bodybuilder's approach. I kept saying that I wasn't interested in being a flesh bearing sculpture - I just wanted to lift the heavy weights! I wanted to feel uber-strong! For a few ecstatic months he came up with a powerlifting routine for me and I just LOVED it! I ended up being being able to deadlift 400 pounds! I wasn't cut anywhere you could see (LOTS of loose skin) but when I raised my arms and all that loose flesh fell you could see one hell of a bicep bump! I lost enough in the booty area that unpadded chairs became uncomfortable to sit on.
Fast forward (relative term) to today - I haven't been exercising in nearly a year because the second trainer drove me crazy with his switching me back to his brother (though I specifically told him I wanted HIS expertise) or handing me off to his apprentice trainer or changing the routine (without ever consulting me!) or his pricing structure at the drop of a hat.
I sit here sorely missing the days when I was steadily growing stronger and loving every torturous minute of it. Then along comes a book that I bought at a 2 for 1 sale at Borders Bookstore - NROL4W - and I see my strong past and stronger future!
Everything in the book about needing MORE calories to support the heavy weight lifting and MORE protein to repair the muscles - I was arguing about this with *everyone* from the nutritionists to my GP to the diabetes doc.
Thank you, thank you, thank you (one for each of the authors!) for writing this book and helping me know I wasn't crazy after all (at least about this).
I haven't completely read the book yet but I was looking at some of the advice around recovery and getting blood into the muscles to reduce soreness and increase oxygen.
Has anyone ever considered doing Yin Yoga? It has many fewer poses than traditional hatha yoga and you hold the poses (most of them done on the floor) for anywhere from one minute to twenty. This helps stretch the fascia, tendons (just a bit) and ligaments (also, just a bit) helping those "anatomy trains" run along smoother tracks.
On the more obvious tip, deeply relaxing into a pose and breathing deeply not only helps loosen sore muscles and tight fascia, etc but it helps your whole body rev down and relax.
I discovered this type of yoga about five years ago when several surgeries and naturally tight fascia around the calves made my body an uncomfortable place to be. Once I started doing this regularly I could see more progress in my lifting because everything wasn't in pain.
Do a search for Paul Grilley or Yin Yoga and I think you'll be surprised by the info you find.
By the way, Grilley has an *excellent* dvd on ANATOMY FOR YOGA that helps people visualize what Alwyn was saying about bone lengths and how different people will do the same exercise differently. Highly recommended!
I'm glad that you are enjoying NROL4W. I really enjoyed the program too; it was the program that put me over the edge from a fitness newbie struggling with programs to having a fit body that can do just about anything now. It was almost magical how my body was transformed; it wasn't complete, but it addressed very effectively my weak points. It put me into a position where I could see what was possible.
There have been many on this board who have gone through the program with less-than-optimal fitness; lots of them could give you tips and insights here, I would suggest you set up a log and/or visit the logs and get to know people. For instance, my ability to go thru the program was the "ok" from the book that I only work out 2 days a week. Lessening the frequency gave my body the time it needed to fully respond. Previously, I had done 5 or 6 day a week programs, which was a disaster for me ultimately.
I would love to see a beginner's lifting book for people new to fitness or returning after some time. I had some fairly serious health issues, and I don't think that there are many resources for people (esp women) who really want to get in shape and aren't afraid of the weights. Most I've seen are namby-pamby and certainly didn't appeal to me.
On the yoga issue--in the future you might want to make a separate thread for each question. I don't know that kind of yoga, but I do take a class a week of fairly traditional Hatha/Vinyasa yoga. It is helpful now, but was not before I was fit; I was simply too flexible and it actually hurt me. Now that my muscles are strong I can handle it. It does help, generally, but for recovery purposes there's nothing like foam rolling, hot baths and stretching. Foam rolling very effectively "smooths out" the muscles and helps get rid of adhesions, scar tissue and such that we've built up over years of misuse/disuse/abuse. It also hurts like #$%^, but it's a "good" hurt.
Welcome to the boards and I hope to see your input in the future.
I think your suggestion is great and I hope Lou sees it.
What do you feel was missing from NROL4W that would be needed to address this target audience
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I would love to see a beginner's lifting book for people new to fitness or returning after some time. I had some fairly serious health issues, and I don't think that there are many resources for people (esp women) who really want to get in shape and aren't afraid of the weights.
You've already said that
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my ability to go thru the program was the "ok" from the book that I only work out 2 days a week. Lessening the frequency gave my body the time it needed to fully respond.
so it sounds like NROL4W fit the ticket for you. What else do you think would be needed for the target group you mention?
Thanks for posting here Lisa and Fang! Fang, I tended, from puberty to grow muscle a bit quickly and my leg muscles especially responded like mad to the heavier weights. I actually had pains from my fascia being too tight around the increased muscles! It felt freaky until I stumbled upon Grilley's method to lengthen and stretch the fascia.
So, for me, it wasn't a problem doing the weights and the yoga together. I'm really really aware that this isn't true for everyone or even most people. It was just my body being itself, I suppose.
Even though I was aware of my muscles responding well to the heavier weights I still experimented until I got a good combination of both. I would definitely suggest that to anyone and everyone.
The New Rules of Lifting for Women: The Modifications - If you're older, heavier, hurt, stiff, have a chronic condition or are starting over after a long time away.
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I would love to see a beginner's lifting book for people new to fitness or returning after some time. I had some fairly serious health issues, and I don't think that there are many resources for people (esp women) who really want to get in shape and aren't afraid of the weights. Most I've seen are namby-pamby and certainly didn't appeal to me.
Thanks for these suggestions. If you don't mind my rambling, I'll share a few thoughts about how my editor and I make these decisions.
First, and most important, we have to make sure the books have broad appeal. Conventional publishing is an expensive and inefficient business. It costs a lot to produce and publicize a hardcover book. Since the word "lifting" is in the title, we're already going after a niche audience, and with each book we have to ask ourselves which niche of that niche we'll be serving.
We've already done a book that more or less addresses most men who lift, and one that addresses most women. I feel as if we're done with the gender-specific books -- although, as I've said many times, we didn't intend for the first one to be for men only; we just underestimated the potential appeal to women.
The public perception of these two books has been instructive. A cover line on the original NROL says "for beginners and elite lifters," even though the real target was readers in between those extremes. Serious lifters have said NROL is for beginners only (check out some of the most disparaging reviews on Amazon.com). Some beginners have said they're too challenging.
Still, readers have a way of figuring out which books are for them and which aren't, and all my books have tended to do well over the years with word-of-mouth recommendations. I mostly hear from readers who've been lifting for some time with limited success. The second-biggest group is those returning to the gym after months or years away. I rarely hear from pure beginners or truly advanced trainees.
Why the ambiguity? Why not just say, "These books will work best for intermediate lifters"? Because a reader may define his or her status in a different way. All I can do with that kind of marketing is drive people away. I learned at Men's Health that slapping the "beginner's guide" label on an article guarantees very low readership. You can take the same article, package it as a straight-ahead training program addressing a specific problem and promising a specific biological benefit, and get several times more readers than you'd get with the "beginner" tag.
With every book I've worked on as an author or editor, I start with a mental image of an archery target: There's a specific type of reader in the bullseye. Sometimes it's a specific person in the absolute center of the center. I tell myself, "I want to write the perfect book for this guy or this woman." (I don't tell the person until after the book is published.)
The next ring is people who will get tremendous benefits from this book. And then I go out from there. Readers over 60 might be in one circle. Teenage readers might be in a circle beyond that. At the outside are people who might pick it up because they've heard good things about it, but they aren't serious enough or focused enough to work their way through the programs and see the benefits. They'll be on to something else within a few weeks.
The one thing I won't do is focus on the reader who's least likely to seek out the book, or benefit from it. I only know one way to reach training goals, and that's with a well-designed, progressive program. I don't want to bullshit anybody and promise benefits that don't require time, effort, and consistent focus. That's why I don't try to delve into the psychological complexities of adherence or stages of change. If someone isn't at the "action" stage, I don't know what I can offer.
It's also why my books don't promise results in short time periods. I had to promise results in 9 weeks in Testosterone Advantage Plan, and I was never happy about it. The strategy, literally, was to top Body for Life by making our program 3 weeks shorter. It's telling that most of our sales were the direct-to-consumer version of the book, which offered two 9-week programs, instead of the retail version, which offered one.
All that said, the one subgroup that I've thought most seriously about recently are those who have a lot of weight to lose. Since TAP I haven't wanted to focus on pure weight loss because I honestly don't know how to help people lose weight beyond the information that's in the books already. I think it's a terrible idea to create massive energy deficits for quick weight loss, and some research published in the past few years suggests that intentional weight loss for people who aren't obese to begin with isn't really a good idea.
It just seems like an ethical minefield for an author. How can I be honest and helpful?
But readers, as always, are ahead of me, and I've heard from more than I can count or remember who told me how they've used NROL programs as part of an overall weight-loss plan. The numbers are amazing in some cases. So if readers have already shown that NROL workouts and principles are useful for serious and sustained weight loss, maybe it makes sense to write a book for that audience.
I hope this wasn't too long or discursive. The short answer is, I listen to everyone and consider everything, but for practical reasons I have to create books with the broadest possible appeal.
Lou, thanks for the insight. What you said was very interesting.
I've been working through NROLFW for over 9 months now (time off to deal with a knee issue) and since I'm nearing the end, I've picked up the original NROL. I have to chuckle at the difference in "attitude" between the books. I think I must have been in one your inner rings for NROLFW, but I have to roll my eyes sometimes when reading NROL. I guess, as a female, I've never had an overinflated desire to do biceps curls! My husband wants to read NROL when I'm done, so it will be interesting to see how it speaks to him. He wasn't interested in reading NROLFW, though.
Anyway, thanks for the books. It's obvious to me that a lot of care and attention to detail went into writing and producing them.
It just seems like an ethical minefield for an author. How can I be honest and helpful?
.
Lou, I think the struggle of someone in your position to write ethically and helpfully about weight loss and fitness would actually be an interesting topic for a book.
Serious lifters have said NROL is for beginners only (check out some of the most disparaging reviews on Amazon.com). Some beginners have said they're too challenging.
Still, readers have a way of figuring out which books are for them and which aren't, and all my books have tended to do well over the years with word-of-mouth recommendations. I mostly hear from readers who've been lifting for some time with limited success. The second-biggest group is those returning to the gym after months or years away. I rarely hear from pure beginners or truly advanced trainees.
This is because almost without exception elite lifters aren't doing pre-written programs.
Note that I'm not picking on you for this; realistically nobody can write "programs" for the top-level folks (which doesn't just mean high-performing athletes, but even recreational types near their genetic asymptotes), so it's not really something you can get around.
At that stage you just have to know what to do, and ideally lift with a like-minded group (what the fancy-pants will call "cybernetic periodization" and auto-regulatory training).
Written programs just can't match the needs of the advanced (in most cases, but therein lies part of the problem), no matter how much we'd like them to. As you say, it's about targeting your market, and writing that kind of book is a whole different animal.
At the other end of the spectrum, pure beginners will either spend years "just lifting" by doing the muscle-rag programs or lifting with their buddies - rarely are they going to find a book and start from it (and if they do, odds are heavily skewed towards it being something fluffy). Beginners are by definition too green to know what they need in the first place, so they end up spinning their wheels.
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Why the ambiguity? Why not just say, "These books will work best for intermediate lifters"? Because a reader may define his or her status in a different way. All I can do with that kind of marketing is drive people away. I learned at Men's Health that slapping the "beginner's guide" label on an article guarantees very low readership. You can take the same article, package it as a straight-ahead training program addressing a specific problem and promising a specific biological benefit, and get several times more readers than you'd get with the "beginner" tag.
This is because everybody's advanced.
If you lift in a commercial gym and aren't competitive in some kind of strength sport, then it's very easy to overestimate yourself and become the big fish in a small pond.
You see this all the time: people that have been lifting at most a year or two, gained a few pounds and gotten a little stronger, and suddenly they need an advanced workout.
So yeah, this makes a lot of sense.
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Grateful you answered Mr. Rock Star - and another impertinent suggestion!
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Originally Posted by Lou Schuler
Thanks for these suggestions.
First, and most important, we have to make sure the books have broad appeal. Conventional publishing is an expensive and inefficient business. It costs a lot to produce and publicize a hardcover book. Since the word "lifting" is in the title, we're already going after a niche audience, and with each book we have to ask ourselves which niche of that niche we'll be serving.
The short answer is, I listen to everyone and consider everything, but for practical reasons I have to create books with the broadest possible appeal.
Mr. Schuler, this wasn't long or rambling at all, IMHO. I'm actually honored that you noticed this thread!
I'm a freelance writer with NO published book experience so this appeal came purely out of the place of a fan of the book and its' principles.
I'm one of those people who had massive weight loss and I partially accomplished this with weights (though on much less organized programs). When I read NROL4W I knew we were a matched set!
Having worked in the writing *and* book selling businesses I can tell you that many people already interested in your books would want to know things such as:
1. how to keep exercising around an injury;
2. when to back off and recuperate (some folks don't understand that body weight workouts can produce serious injuries, too);
3. how to modify the NROL4W exercises when - you've got a gut (large breasts, etc.) to work around;
4. you've lost the weight but the damage has been done - arthritis and how to do progressively intense lower body work;
5. you're just rebuilding your energy/strength after having been out of the gym for some time.
Those are just a few suggestions. Maybe I'm only speaking from my own experiences here but after cruising around this site for a few weeks I see the threads for those with lots of weight to lose, older women, lots of questions on modifications for various reasons, etc. I think you would have a built-in audience here - even if you did it as a chapter by chapter e-book subscription while you shopped the booked around to publishers or if you just wanted to do it as an e-book for followers like myself. The publishing expense in either case would be small.
1. how to keep exercising around an injury;
2. when to back off and recuperate (some folks don't understand that body weight workouts can produce serious injuries, too);
3. how to modify the NROL4W exercises when - you've got a gut (large breasts, etc.) to work around;
4. you've lost the weight but the damage has been done - arthritis and how to do progressively intense lower body work;
5. you're just rebuilding your energy/strength after having been out of the gym for some time.
All of that would be important to consider in a book targeted to people with a lot of weight to lose. Even within my own family, I'm astounded at how many modifications have to be made before people can do the workouts. Sometimes it's the injuries that lead to the weight gain, rather than the weight that leads to the injuries.
Now, here's a question for you:
When it comes to serious and permanent weight loss, did you find it's better to use a specific diet program, or to follow a set of guidelines?
I assume neither works until you're ready to make them work.
I agree that I am interested in variations and modifications, especially in light of the ridiculous arthritis that is attacking my right hand. I've been unable to properly perform deadlifts, but really, if it involves gripping (which is pretty much the definition of LIFTING WEIGHTS), I have a hard time.
However, I don't think an additional "NROL4W with an injury or arthritis or another obstacle in the way of the form described in NROL4W" would appeal to me. I don't want a program AND a companion program.
Instead, I have found that places like this forum are a better companion to the books. The posters in this forum have given me a lot of valuable advice in dealing with lifting and arthritis, without having to head to the bookstore or library and research, check out or buy yet another book.
How about a program that you can do strength training 5 days a week. With no bicep curls or tricep kick backs. Keep the push-ups, dead lifts. squats, pull-downs, keep all the NROLFW exercises. Just format them so I can lift every day with sufficent recovery for optimum results.
I love this discussion. With regard to training people who have not trained for a while or are working around an injury, you can still always use NRLFW as a principle and substitute exercises for ones that are safe of that can be progressions to the exercises in the book. You can precondition for certain goals and use the knowledge from physical therapists, movement therapists, personal trainers, etc and do preparation exercises followed by exercises from the book. This is how most of the people I work with train, since I generally train with people with some sort of difficulty from being overweight or injured or both to recovering from heavy C sections and surgery. It is truly astounding how the rules apply to everything and the principles in the book stay valid, you just have to own the tools to modify.
Lou, it's always a pleasure to read your writing.
How about a program that you can do strength training 5 days a week. With no bicep curls or tricep kick backs. Keep the push-ups, dead lifts. squats, pull-downs, keep all the NROLFW exercises. Just format them so I can lift every day with sufficent recovery for optimum results.
That's an interesting idea. I've always thought my "brand," such as it is, is providing information and workouts for people who only have time to train 3x a week, maybe 4x at most.
But if Alwyn and I decided to go with the serious weight-loss book, then it would make sense to at least give options for exercising 5 or even 6x a week. Not strength training on all those days, of course, but something active.
I registered specifically to respond to this thread.
I just finished reading the book last night. And, unfortunately, I woke up this morning and wondered, "Should I lift weights?"
You are so adamant Mr. Schuler that it is illogical to cut calories while you are trying to lift weights that it confused me.
And then, fortunately, I realised two things:
1) My goal is to lose fat, not just weight. I want to preserve what muscle I can. I am 45 years old and I am actually a bit grateful I have asked my bones to carry all this weight around these past few years. Osteoporosis scares me.
2) You mention that the Owen equation used on p. 62 to calculate caloric requirements is for normal-weight women. I am aiming to lose another 80 pounds (I have already lost 40 in 18 weeks)--so I would probably need to use a different formula.
So, with those two things in mind, I realised I can start the program and reassess my caloric intake in 4 weeks, just as you suggest.
You did ask a direct question, however, which I want to address.
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When it comes to serious and permanent weight loss, did you find it's better to use a specific diet program, or to follow a set of guidelines?
If you mean do I find it better to use so-and-so's program to lose weight, or is it better for me to create my own using a set of guidelines about grams of protein and percentages of macronutrients and the total amount of calories I ought to consume to meet my goals, and so on and so forth, then I would have to say the latter.
Because what is "serious and permanent weight loss"? It is maintaining a normal weight forever. It is never becoming overweight again.
With that as the goal: what I need to do is change my relationship to food and restructure its role in my life.
For me, I need guidelines based on examples. I treat all "programs" as examples of ways to eat. Every and any programe works as long as you stick to it. The key is finding something you can stick with.
I need to figure things out for myself. But that's just the way I roll. Some folks are so poorly informed they may benefit from a program. However, I strongly believe that if a person is going to lose weight and keep it off, each, by the end, must make the program uniquely his or her own.
I think there are lots of "programs" out there--too many in fact. And what do they do? Ask a person to put their trust in someone other than him or herself.
And that's just not a recipe for "serious and permanent" weight loss.
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But if Alwyn and I decided to go with the serious weight-loss book,....
Yes, yes, yes, please!
(Sorry for the novella, but I do hope it was helpful.)
Sometimes it's the injuries that lead to the weight gain, rather than the weight that leads to the injuries.
I met a woman the other day (she worked at the warehouse where I bought some fitness equipment, actually) who was maybe 250-300lbs. She helped me carry some kettlebells to the car, asking training questions here and there. She has a bum knee. Did it start before the weight or after? I don't know. Maybe it started at 200lbs -- already overweight, but the injury helped things to get worse and worse.
At one point she asked me about exercise and I told her that the kettlebell she was carrying for me could be part of the solution. She didn't think she was in good enough shape to start exercising.
I'd be curious how often someone in "good shape" gets injured and allows him/herself to gain a significant amount of weight vs someone already overweight allowing things to spiral out of control.
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Now, here's a question for you:
When it comes to serious and permanent weight loss, did you find it's better to use a specific diet program, or to follow a set of guidelines?
I've gone through a dozen or more eating and fitness plans since I decided to lose weight (7 years ago). The key is to always know what your next plan is likely to be. If I decide the current plan sucks, I always know what's next OR do my research while continuing on the old plan. I've never stopped and gone back to old habits until I found the next thing to try.
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I assume neither works until you're ready to make them work.
Not to go too off topic, but I was generally unhappy, and tried to lose weight to get happy. It never stuck for long. You lose weight and don't get any happier, and decide to give up at the first or second big issue. It wasn't until I decided to be happy that the weight came off and stayed off.
You have to want it or you'll never survive. Fat loss isn't all that easy, so piling on false expectations of curing any mental or emotional issues by losing fat is bound to cause problems. Losing fat isn't going to make us less shy or more liked or give us more friends. I think a lot of people subconsciously believe it will, though. When they drop 20lbs and nothing's changed, do they start to realize it and go back to old habits? I did, multiple times in my 30+ years of being overweight.
That's an interesting idea. I've always thought my "brand," such as it is, is providing information and workouts for people who only have time to train 3x a week, maybe 4x at most.
But if Alwyn and I decided to go with the serious weight-loss book, then it would make sense to at least give options for exercising 5 or even 6x a week. Not strength training on all those days, of course, but something active.
That is actually the other side of the coin: would NROL(4W) be suitable for someone who's very well-conditioned/trained but still hasn't discovered how to design her/his own program. NROL would be a good in-between program to make them see why & how to implement different types of exercises.
Not to go too off topic, but I was generally unhappy, and tried to lose weight to get happy. It never stuck for long. You lose weight and don't get any happier, and decide to give up at the first or second big issue. It wasn't until I decided to be happy that the weight came off and stayed off.
You have to want it or you'll never survive. Fat loss isn't all that easy, so piling on false expectations of curing any mental or emotional issues by losing fat is bound to cause problems. Losing fat isn't going to make us less shy or more liked or give us more friends. I think a lot of people subconsciously believe it will, though. When they drop 20lbs and nothing's changed, do they start to realize it and go back to old habits? I did, multiple times in my 30+ years of being overweight.
Not to continue to derail the thread, but I had to quote and comment this. Especially the first paragraph, and most especially the bold statement, for I discovered the same thing and said so to a dear friend almost word-for-word just this week.
For me, it was not just about being happy in general, though that was likely part of it. It was also about changing my own view of my body, hopefully to one a bit more healthy. As I said to my friend, once I was able to accept my body as it was, I was willing to put forth what was necessary to change it. As you said, fat loss isn't all that easy, and I needed to decide that I was worth all the effort that I was asking of myself.
Not a hijack. This is exactly what I want to know -- the techniques and strategies that work for weight loss. That includes the mental state required. I've known plenty of people who tried to lose weight for the reasons Roland mentioned, but I can't think of anyone in that group who successfully kept the weight off.
When it comes to factors that help people in succeeding at weight loss, one of them is to be more self-appreciative regardless of weight. Roland mentioned 'happy'. On a more mundane level, many have said they only started the weight loss journey once they bought clothes that made them look good at the weight they were at the moment.
For continued weight loss when you are at a decent weight, I can recommened performance goals.
I can't think of anyone in that group who successfully kept the weight off.
Lou--may I suggest you introduce yourself at the Maintainer's Forum at 3Fat Chicks?
There are women (and there may be the odd fellow) who has managed to lose significant amounts of weight and keep it off for more than a year.
If you want to put together some sort of questionaire for the Maintainers, I bet the mods would be open to you using the forum to recruit participants. Why not? There's a forum wide banner posted right now from Health Magaizine for those who have reached goal to submit their story.
There is also the National Weight Control Registry.
Losing weight and keeping it off is truly more about what's between your ears than on your body or your plate. And by the same token, it's not a magic pill.
[quote=Rachmmahoney;763958]How about a program that you can do strength training 5 days a week. Yes! Yes! Yes! I am one of those people who loves schedules and I find on my non-lifting days that not having to go to the gym throws me off. So I go and do an hour of cardio- which is not in the plan. But a five day a week schedule? That would be great goddess building.
Impertinent suggestion for the authors next book:
Grateful you answered Mr. Rock Star - and another impertinent suggestion!
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