Some say you cannot lose weight and build muscle because you have to eat to support muscle growth, while others say you can lose weight by eating in deficit while doing NROLFW. So which is it? Can you eat in deficit and still gain muscle? I'm confused about how to interpret the science - I realize that individuals are going to have different experiences. I also know that there is a difference between losing fat and losing pounds, but that's only academic for those who need to lose pounds, as opposed to those who are "skinny fat" and are just looking for body recomposition. I know there have been a number of threads about weight loss, diet, etc. But there is no consensus about whether or not you can lose weight if you have weight to lose.
Thanks, missjane, that is a nice, succinct way of stating what the facts are. There just seems to be a variety of intepretations of those facts in this forum. I guess that was my point - I was trying to call attention to the differing points of view and start some discussion about why people interpret them differently.
If your "bottom line" question is "Can I lose weight on NROL4W?" Then, the answer is yes. I did. Lots of it. BUT, I was in a caloric deficit and I kept my protein high. I lost fat, and maintained my LBM. Many have found that they cannot keep up with the intensity of NROL4W on a caloric deficit; hence, all the claims of no weight loss around here. So, it depends upon whether or not YOU are capable of maintaining a deficit AND the intensity of NROL4W all at the same time.
Miss Jane, can I ask you what calorie counts you ate at when you did NROL4W? Just curious how low you need to go to lose weight but still be able to complete the workouts. I am trying to increase protein but it seems difficult to keep my calorie count low when I do and I am so a carb monster, I really need to re-program my eating habits to get the protein in. I do mix protein powder with Greek yogurt and fruit but that is a pretty high calorie snack in the end. Also, want to tell you that your dog is absolutely adorable!
Mary
I actually ate very low-carb, high protein, higher fat throughout NROL4W (TNT diet). I can't tell you my calorie level, because I didn't track for the first 5 months. Only when I got close to my goal did I begin to track. Being low-carb naturally puts me in a deficit, as the higher protein and fat intake keeps my appetite at bay.
Keeping protein high shouldn't cause your calories to get too high. Track your meals in Fitday or something like that. Plan out your protein FIRST (1g per lb of BW approx). THEN, fill in the rest with carbs and fat.
MissJane, do you remember what your macronutrient ratios were? I've been trying to keep mine at 40/30/30 (P/C/F), I'm wondering how that compares to what you were doing.
thanks for the info - right now I am at 25/50/25, so I see I need some work - track on the Daily Plate.
Oh yea...you need to cut some carbs there and up the protein!! I'm not saying to follow the macros I used during my TNT diet, but you still need to hit that protein maco and then fill in with the rest.
Thanks, missjane, that is a nice, succinct way of stating what the facts are. There just seems to be a variety of intepretations of those facts in this forum. I guess that was my point - I was trying to call attention to the differing points of view and start some discussion about why people interpret them differently.
Some of the conflicting information is that some people can't lift heavy and keep the food under control. Or, that on a deficit, some people find it harder to lift heavy.
I lost weight on NROL4W and now continue to lose weight on NROL (but I had, and still have a lot to lose). In fact when I drop the exercise I rarely lose weight (probably because I'm not willing to drop the calories low enough).
And to the macro questions, I generally do 30+ protein, and let the rest fall where they may. Looking at the last little while this usually ends up being 33P, 25F, 42C.
Everything Jane said is dead on. If you need more knowledge get Leigh's book to help you with the basics because it seems like you need it.
I think my original point was misinterpreted-as I responded to missjane's post, I understand the facts, I'm just curious as to why everyone here has differing opinions. There seems to be no consensus as to whether or not you can or should lose weight on NROLW. Personally, I think it's more complicated than "calories in - calories out" because of factors such as motivation, up-bringing, environment, body chemistry, the types of food an individual eats, etc. My confusion is about why everyone doesn't interpret the facts the same, and, as I said earlier, I was hoping to start a discussion about why there are conflicting opinions. Apparently, my original post just came across as a dumb question.
I also know that there is a difference between losing fat and losing pounds, but that's only academic for those who need to lose pounds, as opposed to those who are "skinny fat" and are just looking for body recomposition. I know there have been a number of threads about weight loss, diet, etc. But there is no consensus about whether or not you can lose weight if you have weight to lose.
Two things:
1. I think it's more than academic for people who need to lose pounds to make sure they are hanging on to as much LBM as possible. We want to keep as much muscle and bone mass as possible to continue to support our bodies as we shed fat.
2. I can only speak from personal experience, which is that I personally can lose fat while gaining LBM. For me, it requires great care with my diet and hard work in the gym as well as my other workouts.
No, it's not a dumb questions, but you can't argue the laws of thermodynamics.
Can you lose weight on NROL4W? Yes, if you put yourself in a caloric deficit.
Is NROL4W a weight loss program? No, not really, at the calorie levels outlined in the book.
As others have said, it all boils down to how one's body reacts to intense training. If you eat at a deficit and can't handle the workouts, then you are going to eat more or overeat. OR, if the workouts wipe you out so much that you just stop moving more in general in your everyday life, then you are losing that calorie burn, as well. It's a pretty individual thing, and only you can know what you and your body are capable of doing.
But, it truly does boil down to calories in/calories out when it all comes out in the wash.
Some of the conflicting information is that some people can't lift heavy and keep the food under control. Or, that on a deficit, some people find it harder to lift heavy.
Congrats on your weight loss! So I wonder if people who can't lift heavy and control food intake should eat different types of food, or more food. I think it's a lot harder to figure out the right equation when you get down to an individual level. Sure, when you look at large groups of people and trend data, those who eat less and expend more lose the most weight. And yet, it's rarely that simple. Why are some people able to keep their intake under control while others can't? I know it's an age old question, but I think it's interesting to hear why some people have been successful, while others have not.
During TNT, I would say they were about 45/15/40 (P/C/F). My only carbs came from veggies, for the most part.
wow, that's low carbs! I'm a total carb slut, so just getting down to 30% for me has been a little tough. Especially when I'm menstruating or feeling blue, I just want to dive in to breads and sugars.
That said, according to my HRM I'm burning ~2800 cals/day (adjusted for the typical 30% overestimation), and I'm taking in ~2100 cals/day and losing about 1 pound a week, so I think I've got the cal in/cal out balance right. Thanks for your help, MissJane.
Congrats on your weight loss! So I wonder if people who can't lift heavy and control food intake should eat different types of food, or more food. I think it's a lot harder to figure out the right equation when you get down to an individual level. Sure, when you look at large groups of people and trend data, those who eat less and expend more lose the most weight. And yet, it's rarely that simple. Why are some people able to keep their intake under control while others can't? I know it's an age old question, but I think it's interesting to hear why some people have been successful, while others have not.
I think the problem is that the answer isn't simplistic. Each person faces their own issues, and obstacles.
I'll use Jane as an example (I hope she won't mind). She does amazing, even fantastic on low carb eating. I'd probably kill someone over a piece of fruit eventually. I tried pushing my protein levels up to 40% and I couldn't keep it up. That's partly because I don't eat some things that people use to naturally do so (greek yogurt, cottage cheese, etc.)
I made bread the other day (high protein actually) and lots of people were going 'mmmm... bread'. I know some people that when they bake their own bread can't stop at one slice. I've been known to make two loaves, let them cool.... then slice and freeze them without even trying a piece. Yet, I really enjoy a piece of toast with jam with my eggs in the morning (hence the foray into high protein baking).
Some people would freak out without a piece of chocolate once a day, and can limit themselves to such. I don't do well with junk food control, but reasonably well with eliminating it. And that just touches on the eating side of it. Now you work in the exercise part of it and you're going to bring in another full set of variables.
The simplest answer is 'eat less, move more'. However, having said that I tend to stick with 'eat more, move more'. I have a horribly bad tendency if I drop the calories to stop moving around. Not during the exercising part of my day, but during the rest of it. This morning I went outside and trimmed plants, dug in the dirt, had a swim, etc. This afternoon I spent another hour filling a watering can and dragging the water around. Another year I'd have dragged the hose with me and splashed a little water around. Same effect (plants watered), but the way I did it today burned more calories.
Now, for someone that is naturally active (I'm not) they may not have to increase their activity level. For them it may simply be about calories. However, adding in heavier lifting may make them less active, and more hungry.
We're all individuals, and what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another.
I just finished reading Alwyn Cosgrove's Afterburn and guess what....their calorie consumption is in a deficit all the time. Workouts look somewhat similar to ours. And they start HIIT on day one.
I will tell you, it is quite intense and you can see how people will have results on the program. The goal of this program is fat loss. You can build muscle but the name of the program is "Extreme Fat Loss Training". The schedule is exactly like ours too. I would totally recommend people buy the course. I am going to adjust the nutrition portion to fit his. If someone has completed NROLFW already, this would be a great next phase. If you just started, it is quite similar that if you made the adjustments, it would not be too huge of a difference. NROLFW is a perfect intro to this. But I've heard others mention they have lifted before so this may be a good start.
A great investment. His website is alwyncosgrove.com.
And as everyone above has commented, if you are going to do a deficit you want to definitely increase that protein intake and cut down the carbs. Yes, won't build as much muscle but you will maintain your muscle and burn fat if you do it.
I just finished reading Alwyn Cosgrove's Afterburn and guess what....their calorie consumption is in a deficit all the time. Workouts look somewhat similar to ours. And they start HIIT on day one.
I will tell you, it is quite intense and you can see how people will have results on the program. The goal of this program is fat loss. You can build muscle but the name of the program is "Extreme Fat Loss Training". The schedule is exactly like ours too. I would totally recommend people buy the course. I am going to adjust the nutrition portion to fit his. If someone has completed NROLFW already, this would be a great next phase. If you just started, it is quite similar that if you made the adjustments, it would not be too huge of a difference. NROLFW is a perfect intro to this. But I've heard others mention they have lifted before so this may be a good start.
A great investment. His website is alwyncosgrove.com.
And as everyone above has commented, if you are going to do a deficit you want to definitely increase that protein intake and cut down the carbs. Yes, won't build as much muscle but you will maintain your muscle and burn fat if you do it.
dont you think that starting HIIT from day one can cause problems while you are already consuming calories in a deficit...Will it be safe for every one???
dont you think that starting HIIT from day one can cause problems while you are already consuming calories in a deficit...Will it be safe for every one???
For me, it is not a problem. Of course, YMMV. I'm a swimmer so I've done intervals (though not always high intensity with every workout) throughout my life. I know where my boundaries are.
For me, a half hour or less of HIIT isn't enough to make me go hog wild with food. For me, it really isn't that much effort. Again, YMMV. Test it and see what works for you.
I honestly don't think so. And Afterburn has been successful with many people. Alwyn is the one who wrote our fitness section. I think it depends on the individual. If you have regularly been going to gym 5 days a week doing some form of cardio and weightlifting, then it shouldn't be a problem. For example, I had already been weightlifting, taking salsa classes, pilates, and cardio dance. And on a calorie deficit. Here's my view....you can't treat one fitness book as a bible. Sure, many are bad and few are great. NROLFW is one of the few greats, as well as Afterburn. As Miss Jane states, calories in/calories out. If you haven't done anything in a long time then maybe HIIT/weightlifting on a deficit at first will be too much. For me personally, it would not be an issue. It always balls down to the individual and the process is trial-and-error. It may be okay for some and not for others. Hopes this makes sense.
dont you think that starting HIIT from day one can cause problems while you are already consuming calories in a deficit...Will it be safe for every one???
For me, HIIT on a deficit plus weight training is a sure fire way to crash and burn. In fact when I did that last Spring I wound up gaining over 10 lbs because it wore me out so much and made me so hungry I couldn't get enough food in me to recover LOL And I was not a newbie, I had been doing hard cardio workouts and lifting for years. It was just the combo of the deficit+HIIT+weights that really did me in. My hormones got all out of whack--thyroid, cortisol, screwy periods, etc as well.
So can you lose weight or not??
I tried pushing my protein levels up to 40% and I couldn't keep it up. That's partly because I don't eat some things that people use to naturally do so (greek yogurt, cottage cheese, etc.)
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