I am almost to the end of Stage 1 and new to this forum. After reviewing many posts and a couple videos, I think I was doing the deadlift wrong. I tried correcting my form today at the gym and have a question about what I should be feeling in my back.
I am currently doing the deadlift with 30-lb dumbells so am closer to the floor than with a barbell (why no barbell is another story--I am looking for a new gym). But anyway, the main advice I read and saw was to really focus on lifting with the legs and keep the natural arch in the back--don't lift with the back. I was able to do that today and really felt a good working in the legs, but I also felt my lower back muscles working. Not pain, mind you, just work. But it was enough of a tension in the lower back that I am thinking it might not be right, especially thinking ahead to when I go up in weight.
Am I supposed to feel the lower back muscles working during the deadlift? If not, could it be because I have to get down lower to the ground with the dumbells and should it go away with a higher barbell? Any other thoughts or suggestions? I certainly don't want to mess up my back!
I recall this coming up before on here. For the life of me, I can't figure out how to do a conventional dead with DB's. An RDL? Yes. But, I can't see it for a conventional dead. I'll have to try it someday to see if my mind just isn't grasping the concept.
When I deadlift with a barbell, my hands are wider apart then they would be if I were holding 2 thirty pound dumbells. The weight from the dumbells forces your hands to fall shoulder width apart, and the tension I feel when I pull up from the floor seems greater in my back, because the dumbells can swing a bit when they come off the floor, and I'm trying to steady that motion, along with the vertical pull.
There is no swing with a bar, and the load feels more even and steady with a wider grip. But that's just me and my crazy biomechanics.
The weight from the dumbells forces your hands to fall shoulder width apart, and the tension I feel when I pull up from the floor seems greater in my back, because the dumbells can swing a bit when they come off the floor, and I'm trying to steady that motion, along with the vertical pull.
Luna Sea, I think you have noted something important here. I had not really thought about the distance between my hands and the effort it takes to hold dumbells steady. I reviewed the videos (again!) and see everyone lifting the barbell with their hands a little outside their knees. Obviously this is impossible with heavy dumbells--they have to hang straight down in front of the knees. Plus add in the wiggliness factor and I can see how that might be causing excess tension in my back. Probably not a big deal at 30lb dumbells, but it certainly might be a hazard it I try to go higher weight. So I see now more than ever I need to find a new gym with the right equipment and not go up in weight until I get good deadlift form using a barbell. Thanks for your observations!
If you are feeling it in your lower back, a couple of things may be occurring:
-The bar is held too far away from you
-Your lower back is rounded in the "bottom set" position.
-You "lifting" the bar from the floor, rather than "driving" it off the floor.
This is a problem when people try deadlifts that they read about in a magazine article or book. Chances are the upperbody is weak for this lift and you have excessive thoracic spine rounding during the set position. So when you go for the initial "pull", it rounds the lower back too because the body is looking for an easy way to pull the bar. Some UPPER back rounding is okay and common during heavy loads--in which case, for women, a heavy load may be just the bar or 40 lbs.
With my clients, we practice the bottom position relentlessly. Get into a deadlift position and concentrate on driving the chest up (erect) and keeping the bar close. The bar at times, may have to slide away to clear the knees, but it should return close to the body in order for the hips to really drive the pull.
I haven't read the book, so I am not sure of what the instructions are. But mu advice would be to lighten the load, and practice the lift until you do not feel it in your lower back.
If you are feeling it in your lower back, a couple of things may be occurring:
-The bar is held too far away from you
-Your lower back is rounded in the "bottom set" position.
-You "lifting" the bar from the floor, rather than "driving" it off the floor.
Do you need to compensate your form if you are doing deads with dumbells instead of a bar?
(See my post above)
I have a difficult time "driving" dumbells off the floor because of the split load forces. Each arm swings independently of the other. Also, since there is no bar in front of you, the dumbells cannot ever be too far away. In fact, they tend to lift closer to your body than the bar does, and I find myself sort of "pushing out" the bells as I pull into lockout position, or scraping them up my legs because my hands are only shoulder width apart.
So, at the risk of repeating Mamma's question, what, exactly IS correct form for heavy dumbell deads?
I still don't think it's possible to do heavy dumbbell deads (conventional). I'd love to see a video of someone doing it. And, not RDL's, I want to see someone doing conventional deads with DB's
I still don't think it's possible to do heavy dumbbell deads (conventional). I'd love to see a video of someone doing it. And, not RDL's, I want to see someone doing conventional deads with DB's
Me too. I thought it was just one of those things where there cannot be direct transference of form to function because of the split load. RDL's or stiff/straight leg dumbell deads feel the same as doing them with the bar.
So perhaps there is no dumbell substitution for conventional deads?
I have never actually tried doing a conventional deadlift with heavy dumbbells, so I can't speak to that. But in the traditional deadlift, with a heavy bar, I feel a powerful contraction in my lower back - it's part of how I do my abdominal bracing. I think this is normal - and necessary. The idea, as I understand it, is to brace your spine, using your abs and diaphragm, so that the load of the bar is transferred directly from your shoulders down through your spine to your hips, legs, and feet. By keeping your spine rigid, you put the load on your leg and hip muscles. Also your upper back gets involved, because you have to retract your shoulders to keep the bar from pulling you forward.
My point is, you WILL feel your whole body working, but you SHOULDN'T feel your back EXTENDING. Early on, I was lifting the bar from close to the floor, because my plates were too small, and I hadn't realized I was rounding my back - until the next day..... Now, when I lift, I rack the bar higher off the ground, or use the big 45lb plates I've worked up to, and it's not a problem. Believe me, I FEEL that weight in my spine when lifting, but the next day, I only feel the DOMS in my leg and hip muscles.
- J
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ACE-Certified Personal Trainer Since 2002
Lifetime Member of WeightWatchers
Deadlifting from the floor with dumbbells is going to change the mechanics of the lift. You are much lower to the ground. You may want to try elevating the dumbbells a little and trying from there, or switch to the bar elevated, or try using the dumbbells from the top down.
Deadlifting from the floor with dumbbells is going to change the mechanics of the lift. You are much lower to the ground. You may want to try elevating the dumbbells a little and trying from there, or switch to the bar elevated, or try using the dumbbells from the top down.
Thanks all for your observations and insight. I think there are 2 big points here: Dumbells are NOT a suitable substitution for a barbell in deadlifts AND they are too low to the ground to keep proper form. Soooo, yesterday I just went out and joined a gym with the proper equipment. I don't actually do deadlifts until next Workout B in a few days and I promise to report back on what I find. I plan to start with an unloaded Olympic bar (45 lb?) set up on the squat rack about 8-10" as if it had the big plates on it. I have reviewed the form in my husband's book that has about 30 pages of photos and text on the deadlift alone (yikes!). So I think I am ready to try these things for real!
Last edited by MamaMa : 10-11-2008 at 06:57 PM.
Reason: got my exercises mixed up
OMG-this forum and you, missjane, are awesome! I just checked out the videos on deadlifting per your previous post and they answer so many questions I have. If a picture is worth a thousand words, well these videos are worth a million. Thanks a bunch!
UPDATE--I performed the deadlifts at my new gym using 55lb barbell starting with it on the squat rack to about the height it would be with the big plates.
CONCLUSION--This is totally different exercise using the proper form and equipment than what I was trying to do with the dumbbells. Done properly, I do feel a tension in my lower back that is needed to keep the back in the proper form during the lift, but I do not feel any "working." That is, I do not feel the back muscles actively expanding and contracting the way I did with the barbells.
Definitely there is NO substituting dumbbells for a barbell in the deadlift. Now that I know how it is supposed to feel, probably most of what I did with the barbells was a waste of time and a big risk of injury.
First of all, I can't do the deadlift with the Olympic barbell b/c it's too much weight for my knees. My knees hurt at the bottom of the deadlift or squat so I'm starting with lower weights. I use 30lb barbells for the deadlift and 20lb for the squat. (I've only done workout A and workout B once each so far)
The weights I'm using are like long dumbbells. They are "fixed" weights, not the kind with a bar you attach weight plates onto. So they are closer to the floor and I'm definitely bending down lower to grab them for the deadlift than I see in the photos here: CT workout - This Sunday
(the link recommended above)
And I *do* feel the deadlifts in my lower back but I thought I should...aren't deadlifts supposed to be strenghtening your back body? It didnt' seem like a pain, just a feeling that things were working back there.
Now I'm thinking perhaps I need to, when I'm doing the deadlift with the fixed barbells, not descend all the way to the floor. But rather to go only, say 12" from the floor. It'd be easier on my knees to not go so low.
I think you can handle the oly bar for your deadlift without any problem. I'm sure you handle 45 lbs in your daily life without even thinking about it. As shown in the videos in the CT workout thread. Rack the bar in the squat rack to such a height that the bar is as high as it would be when resting on the ground with 45 lb plates. With deadlifts, you always go down to the "floor" (or rack) or whatever you are using and you begin each rep from the "dead" stop. If you are doing ROMANIAN deadlifts (which aren't in Stage 1), those are different entirely. You DON'T go to the floor with those.
thanks, Jane. I will have to ask someone there to show me how to use the squat rack. I used up my last free training session at the gym learning how to use the free weights side of the gym in general before I started the NROLFW. And it was the trainer who suggested the olympic bar is too heavy. Mind you...I'm no wimp, personally I think I'm pretty fit and I certainly have thighs like redwoods...but I also have this knee problem.
I just made an appt. to see a doctor about my knees. It's been going on for years and it's time to stop guessing. In the mean time I'll raise whatever weight I'm working with for those deadlifts.
During Deadlift, What should I feel in my back?
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