I am taking myself off of NROL4W challenge

[z4zach]

Warrior & Natalia ~ I PM'd you both...lucky you!

[Warrior]

Originally Posted by Silly Sally

I can't believe I've passed over this thread as it has grown thinking it was everyone saying "goodbye" to Natalia!

Insightful.

Wisdom gained through experience.

Thanks for sharing.

I think it's pertinent that Natalia thought herself thin enough but soft when she began NRL4W. Adding mass then became her goal.

Power Man's point - to choose a goal and work toward it, is well taken.

Like Karla, who also was a self-proclaimed "cardio queen", thin but not strong. She is now in a "bulking" phase and plans to cut next.

Goals change. One at a time? Seek fat loss, then add significant muscle?

Or, can the 14 day carb cycle, or others like it, enable us squishy gals to lose significant fat while gaining muscle?

It depends largely on your current fitness level. When you hit the advanced and elite stages - periodization and prioritization becomes more and more paramount for continued improvements. See if this answers some of your questions:

Bodybuilding crossroad: bulk or cut?
December 05th, 2007

The idea of “bulking” or “cutting” are bodybuilding terms associated with contrasting periods during a training year. Bulking phases focus on overfeeding and intense training in an attempt to build the most muscle possible. Cutting contrasts the bulk by shaving off accumulated body fat with caloric deficits and frequent endurance training. When making the decision to bulk or cut – gain or lose weight – it’s important to factor in the current stage of development and body composition. These factors determine the degree of specificity a training program should embrace; as well as the body’s potential to properly partition a caloric surplus to fuel muscle growth.

New trainees can embark in a strength-endurance training program and obtain prominent fat loss while gaining some muscle. Initially, consistent resistance training increases motor control efficiency and a tolerance to exercise. Beginners respond well to most strength-building programs; frequently, with a rapid development in force production. The increase in daily activity levels will readily increase fat mobilization – how much fat is lost is primarily affected by these concurrent conditions: diet and nutrient timing; genetic and metabolic conditions; as well as beginning body composition. Nonetheless, it’s easy for someone new to resistance training to mobilize stored fat while building muscle. Their biggest success variable usually lies within maintaining consistency in a healthy and goal-orientated dietary structure, as well as regular strength and endurance workout routines.

Unless genetically gifted, advanced trainees need to prioritize their training periods toward specific goals. Due to their advanced conditioning, a separation must be made between building endurance and strength training. Experienced and well built bodybuilders use superior technique by properly developing the motor skills required for strength training. They generally need lower repetitions, and frequently greater training volume and intensity. When endurance training is accompanied by a restricted diet to promote fat loss, attempts to raise limit strength levels become futile and likely to cause the athlete to over reach. In other words, combining the two training goals will not optimize results. Worse of all, concurrent training could lead to a serious condition of overtraining syndrome.

The question whether to bulk or cut, lies mostly with the advanced trainee. Current body composition should be the deciding factor. If the body’s muscle-to-fat ratio is leading to a soft belly and hanging love handles, it’s time to lean up first. Gilbert Forbes, from the University of Rochester School of Medicine and Dentistry in New York, demonstrated changes in body weight induced by nutrition, whether negative or positive, comprise both lean (fat-free) and fat mass.

Forbes examined how body fat content influences body composition responses to nutrition and exercise. In experiments of at least three weeks in duration, he found weight gain in thin people comprises 60-70 percent lean tissue, where as obese gain 30-40 percent. The relative contribution of muscle acquisition during weight gain is related to body fat.

A good rule: an athlete should avoid bulking if they’re fat. A male with a total body mass containing over 12 percent body fat will be at a hormonal and metabolic disadvantage to properly partition a surplus of incoming calories. Starting a bulking routine at over 15 percent can land an individual up and over 20 percent upon cessation – which is entirely too much fat for an active, healthy person. When venturing over 20 percent body fat, it becomes exceedingly more difficult to return to a hard physique. Losing fat becomes less manageable when an athlete’s environmental and behavioral conditions adjust to caloric splurges and an overweight lifestyle. Even when bulking, it important to practice some dietary restraint. Food is for fuel; never enjoyment.

A novice can often train for both, endurance and strength, to lose fat and build muscle. On the other hand, an advanced trainee should prioritize his or her goals base on their current body composition status.

[alessa]

Warrior, I wanted to say thanks for sharing this valuable information as I was away from this site for a few days.

If you don't mind a detailed question about diet, what other veggies would you include on low-carb days beyond broccoli (and I am assuming spinach, asparagus, leafy greens)? Of course, not carrots or potatoes, but what about summer squash like zucchini and yellow squash? I cannot seem to find consistent nutritional info on those. I get a little sick of broccoli and find it sometimes, um, hard to digest in great amounts.

By the way, I recently tried casein protein (instead of whey) for shakes at night and really like it. I find it lasts much longer, although whey seems to be the gold standard.

Thanks again! Amazing progress!

[missjane]

I low-carb and I eat all veggies (broccoli, cauliflower, peppers, squash, zucchini, lettuce, spinach, etc) except the obvious (carrots, potatoes). All the rest are fair game. I even eat onions and tomatoes, though some low-carbers do limit those.

[Silly Sally]

Originally Posted by Warrior

It depends largely on your current fitness level. When you hit the advanced and elite stages - periodization and prioritization becomes more and more paramount for continued improvements. See if this answers some of your questions:

Bodybuilding crossroad: bulk or cut?

Thank you.

I was afraid of that: that I might be wasting time adding too much muscle now when I've still got 25 stubborn pounds to lose. Honestly, it's all very inexact, though, isn't it? I mean, I trained SS cardio for a year (training for a half marathon) and lost nothing, except muscle. (How can a person run 20 - 25 mpw and still be fat? Baffling.)

The answer must lie somewhere in the middle, much like NRL4W's program utilizing only 2 days ever-increasing resistance training per week, with 4 days cardio and a conscious nutrition program...?

Your experience and willingness to share is much appreciated.

[sportsfreak]

hey warrior

i have been reading for a while and your last post has interested me. I have recently lost the weight i seek to lose. I'm 5'2" and weigh in arounf 105. BUT i still have alot of fat around my abdominal area and thighs (mostly around my stomach). However in ur post it said that i should concentrate to cut the fat first. However, i do not want to lose anymore weight infact i would like to gain weight with muscle. I am aiming for a very muscular physic and being only 16 years old i hope my metabolism is on my side.

I went from 120 to 105 by doing weight training and cardio. But i hate cardio so i did like 15 min thats it. I was not a cardio queen- anything but. And i was counting my calories but i was way to low from what i have been reading. I was eating about 1300-1500. And im guessing for someone my age i need around up to 2000.

My question is should i concentrate on bulking first. and how should i go about doing that.

Thanks for your help

[alessa]

Thanks MissJane! I love yellow squash steamed with cinnamon and stevia or splenda. It's like pie (sort of). I can eat a few of those in a night.

[Warrior]

Originally Posted by alessa

Warrior, I wanted to say thanks for sharing this valuable information as I was away from this site for a few days.

If you don't mind a detailed question about diet, what other veggies would you include on low-carb days beyond broccoli (and I am assuming spinach, asparagus, leafy greens)? Of course, not carrots or potatoes, but what about summer squash like zucchini and yellow squash? I cannot seem to find consistent nutritional info on those. I get a little sick of broccoli and find it sometimes, um, hard to digest in great amounts.

There are lots of low-carb choices. Basically, you want to stick to green leafy veggies, but you can get away with some tomatos or zucchini... as these are mostly water. I wouldn't go near squash or anything related to pumpkin.

If you really want to know if your diet is on target, get some KetoStix from the pharmacist. They are a cheap way to measure ketones in the urine... but have a short shelf life - so use them for a few weeks then discard the rest since their accuracy becomes exceedingly less reliable. Going low carb, you should hit Ketosis within 24 hours after an evening refeed - or within 48 hours after a full carb load, or after eating a mixed diet for awhile. If you can't hit Ketosis, something in your diet might be refilling glycogen.

Aside from meats, chicken, seafood and eggs - I tend to eat lots of salads mixed with lemon and olive oil. A salad a do enjoy is a mix of chopped cabbage, fennel, onion and tomato mixed with lemon and olive oil... pepper and salt as needed. I usually fry my meats with suff like green peppers, broccoli, cauliflower, mushrooms, onions, zuccinni - even some mozarella cheese (typically zero carbs) on top is prefectly fine.

Originally Posted by alessa

By the way, I recently tried casein protein (instead of whey) for shakes at night and really like it. I find it lasts much longer, although whey seems to be the gold standard.

Thanks again! Amazing progress!

You'll do fine with either... whey is the standard after training, but casein (or a mix of casein and whey) is thought to be better as a general meal replacement.

Just remember, it's okay to feel hungry. Your body is going to send signals to increase your hunger when you are effectively mobilizing fats - it doen't like the idea of getting lean... it's only interested in survival, not cosmetics. Interestingly, you can view hunger as a positive state for your body to be in... there are studies on fasting that show natural reductions in tumors and disease through brief periods of fasting. The typical human in today's world is constantly digesting foods - allowing your body to divert its attention away from heavy digestive processes can help improve your health, by allowing greater attention on repair processes. Seriously, the studies are out there.

BTW - when I need something to munch on (such as between lunch and a late dinner), I grab some nuts (pistacios, almonds, cashews,) which do provide some statiety... dietary fats are ketogenic and required when you are eating low carb... just don't go overboard on the nuts as they are calorie dense (salty varieties are easier to overeat). My portions of nuts are the first thing I start to cut back as the diet progresses.

[Warrior]

Originally Posted by Silly Sally

Thank you.

I was afraid of that: that I might be wasting time adding too much muscle now when I've still got 25 stubborn pounds to lose. Honestly, it's all very inexact, though, isn't it? I mean, I trained SS cardio for a year (training for a half marathon) and lost nothing, except muscle. (How can a person run 20 - 25 mpw and still be fat? Baffling.)

The answer must lie somewhere in the middle, much like NRL4W's program utilizing only 2 days ever-increasing resistance training per week, with 4 days cardio and a conscious nutrition program...?

Ever heard of Charles Polquin's fat aerobic instructor syndrome? It's an interesting concept that apparenty holds true for most of us genetically average folks. Basically, if you do nothing but endurance training - and lots of it - your body starts to get effecient at storing fat and burning muscle. Gram-per-gram, fat has more energy than glycogen or muscle... so it's - once again - a survivial thing.... also, muscle significantly increases your metabolic rate - so your body sees the muscle as a liability and the fat as a great energy reserve for someone imposing heavy endurance-training requirements on themselves.

It's important to include plenty of resistance training in any workout plan - bulking up, or cutting. In fact, if you are doing a lot of cardio trying to lose weight, I would cut it in half and increase your time spent under the weights - but shorten your rest intervals so your dripping in sweat just as you would when you do cardio (assuming you are not one of those mislead into long sessions at level 2 ). I do a lot of giant sets as part of my cutting plan (three exercises worked back-to-back, no rest).

Diet is always going to be your limiting factor - you cannot make up for poor food selections with more cardio... as you know, your metabolism is more complicated than that. You have to eat for fat loss, as well as train for it.

Originally Posted by Silly Sally

Your experience and willingness to share is much appreciated.

Thanks, teaching is one of the best ways to keep learning!

[Warrior]

Originally Posted by sportsfreak

hey warrior

i have been reading for a while and your last post has interested me. I have recently lost the weight i seek to lose. I'm 5'2" and weigh in arounf 105. BUT i still have alot of fat around my abdominal area and thighs (mostly around my stomach). However in ur post it said that i should concentrate to cut the fat first. However, i do not want to lose anymore weight infact i would like to gain weight with muscle. I am aiming for a very muscular physic and being only 16 years old i hope my metabolism is on my side.

I went from 120 to 105 by doing weight training and cardio. But i hate cardio so i did like 15 min thats it. I was not a cardio queen- anything but. And i was counting my calories but i was way to low from what i have been reading. I was eating about 1300-1500. And im guessing for someone my age i need around up to 2000.

My question is should i concentrate on bulking first. and how should i go about doing that.

Thanks for your help

If you are 105 - even at 5'2" - I would go ahead and embark on a strength training program to build muscle. The fat around your midsection and thighs (a usual predisposition for women) is prolly not as bad as you think it is... and by adding some muscle now, the next time you get to 105, it's likely to be firmer due to the increase in lean weight. Building up muscle helps increase your metabolic rate while making a leaner condition look more... ummm... presentable.

Since you are reasonably lean right now, I would switch your training program to that more diverted toward increasing your strength levels - you must use a training journal for this! Slowly increase your calories so that you are able to gain some weight - week-to-week - while improving your numbers in your log book... either doing havier loads, more repititions, or the same workout, five minutes faster - all are markers of progression. IMO, the best supplement for building muscle is a training log.

Remember, there are two standard programs you must tailor to yourself: one for adding strength/muscle - the other for losing fat. You could inject further variety by having a maintenance program as well. Generally speaking... a strength-building program can have longer rest intervals with less endurance training... a fat loss program should have shorter rest intervals with more endurance training... a maintenance program should be a time to simply enjoy yourself while preventing detraining from setting in - just maintain.

[sportsfreak]

So warrior, what type of strengh training regime should i be doing. I am really confused when it comes to creating a plan for myself. Should i use NROLFW or is there another plan that will work better for my needs.

Also around how much should i be eating if i want to build muscle. I dont mind being 110-115 with more muscle and less fat. and what macros should i be looking for.

You seem to have my knowledge in the subject matter and i apprecieate your help.

[Silly Sally]

Originally Posted by Warrior

Basically, if you do nothing but endurance training - and lots of it - your body starts to get effecient at storing fat and burning muscle.

Thanks, teaching is one of the best ways to keep learning!

Thank you.

PS. I am now officially jealous of the genetically gifted!