I am taking myself off of NROL4W challenge

[Warrior]

Originally Posted by alessa

Thanks Warrior and Nat for sharing on carb cycling. It is very interesting. Like Natalia I too find that too many carbs just makes me sleepy and lethargic. I have been doing a very modified version of carb cycling but find that the day after a higher carb day, I am just too uncomfortably bloated and dozing at work. The same pair of pants will be fine one day and tight the next. It reminds me of my Atkins days 10 years ago when a piece of bread would blow me up. I thought that I have since become much more moderate about watching carbs but with the cycling notice that I am still pretty sensitive to them, especially early in the day which is when it's probably best to have them in terms of fueling metabolism.

In any case, I am in Stage 3 and not losing any fat so far, so I am always eager to hear others' experiences. Thanks.

That's all quite normal... you'll feel "carb drunk" during a load. I don't feel good the day of the carb load - it's the day after I feel my best.

Bloating and flatulance is from a change in the digestive environment... your enzyme balance can easily get off balance after restiricting all carb sources; particularily amylase.

The gains in weight are expected and required. When you deplete glycogen, your body loses water in the metabolic process. As you replenish (which you can supercompensate when carb loading from a depleted state), the incoming glycogen grabs water to make it into the muscles... at around 2.7 grams of water per gram of glycogen. Depending on your lean body mass - this can traslate to 5-12 pounds of gained weight during a load. I have gained as much as 20 pounds. It's the net difference that you are after - you want to track your strength and endurance abilities while seeing a net drop of 1-2 pounds of fat per week... some weeks you may not drop any, since you could gain some muscle in the process - especially if you are not used to the program design.

Here is were I started when trying to work the kinks out my 14-day mod of Lyle's UD2 (a great read!):









The fat just sucks right off, leaving the muscle - I actually gained strength too.

I am currently in the midst of another run, starting bodyweight of 255. The biggest difference is I have skipped the half banana post-workout during depletion phases... this never kept me from hitting ketosis before - but I just wanted to see how it affects me... I suspect it could cause a greater reduction in amylase which could cause problems with the carb loads (first one starts tonight). Also, I am using the classic version of Xenedrine during this next evolution (the one with ephedrine).

[GinnyLou]

Originally Posted by Susan4

+1 Thanks!!

Add me in there, too!

And Bytsi, thank you for being persistent and asking questions. Powerman, thanks for taking the time to answer. Very informative.

[Kimble]

And thank you from me, too! Moderation seems to be the key word for me! NROL + 1 or 2 HIIT + 1 or 2 SS cardio.

If I could ask one question: if I'm doing the above activity and cutting perhaps 150 calories off maintenance, am I going to at least maintain my muscle mass? (I'm assuming I won't be able to build muscle?) I have trouble with getting enough protein and wonder if 20% or 25%protein instead of 30% would be enough?

Thanks!

[Littlemermaidklb]

Originally Posted by Kimble

And thank you from me, too! Moderation seems to be the key word for me! NROL + 1 or 2 HIIT + 1 or 2 SS cardio.

If I could ask one question: if I'm doing the above activity and cutting perhaps 150 calories off maintenance, am I going to at least maintain my muscle mass? (I'm assuming I won't be able to build muscle?) I have trouble with getting enough protein and wonder if 20% or 25%protein instead of 30% would be enough?

Thanks!

Ditto to this question! (Though, minus the SS cardio for me... too boring, ick!, lol) I want to lose the fat without really sacrificing the muscle and strength gains I've accomplished so far.

[Bytsi]

And Bytsi, thank you for being persistent and asking questions. Powerman, thanks for taking the time to answer. Very informative.

And here I thought I was just annoying

Thanks again to PowermanDL - the time you took to answer patiently was appreciated...

[MuscleMom23]

OMG I stumbled into a gold mine of about 3 threads LOL!

VERY VERY GOOD STUFF +1

I am with you Bytsi. The paranoia of ending up "worse" then you started fat wise.

I just want to get the stuff off ya know? I am mixed up in the plethora of info and very lost.

[maggieandmommy]

Warrior, I love those progress pics--the progression is really clear and impressive. Is this something that you do specifically for an event or do you aim to keep that kind of definition long-term? I'm not sure that I'll ever get to that point (I'm just aiming to get the fat off and have some nice muscles as well), but I can appreciate what you've done.

[Warrior]

Originally Posted by maggieandmommy

Warrior, I love those progress pics--the progression is really clear and impressive. Is this something that you do specifically for an event or do you aim to keep that kind of definition long-term? I'm not sure that I'll ever get to that point (I'm just aiming to get the fat off and have some nice muscles as well), but I can appreciate what you've done.

No, not for exhibition or competition, just personal gratification. I am a former fat kid who got sick of his body composition. At 17 years old I got serious about getting in shape... by 19, I was enlisting in the Marine Corps after finishing some college. This fat kid was down to 179 pounds post boot camp - at 6 feet tall. From there, my goal was to gain back some weight - but hard weight: muscle. So my story isn't much different than Natalia's...

Actually, if you read Muscular Development magazine, you'll see where a story I wrote in it where I explain my adventure into bodybuilding and what it means to me (April 2008 issue)... this is what I wrote:

“Without continual growth and progress, such words as improvement, achievement, and success have no meaning,” said Benjamin Franklin, statesman and journalist. Bodybuilding is a journey into physical growth and progression. It’s a long expedition of learning and applying. Accumulating greater musculature requires ongoing motivation – a relentless obsession to surpass previous fitness thresholds in the midst of daily distractions.

In 2008, I turn 30 years old. Fortunately, the bodybuilding light is still bright as day. I don’t feel a year older. I still see a young man in the mirror – one with the intension to keep improving his physical dimensions. Turning 30 years old seemed like a bad move as an out-of-shape teenager – today, it’s embraced as added opportunity. Every year presents more time to further master body transformation techniques. I know getting into great shape is not a reserved right for an exclusive list of people – it’s simply a matter of time once the necessary path is discovered.

Unfortunately, growing up overweight and grossly unfit is becoming exceedingly typical in the United States. Early in life, it was obvious I wasn’t genetically predisposed to become an athlete. Even so, I was unsatisfied with my physical shape – fat and clumsy couldn’t be a necessary lifelong condition to endure. At 16 years old, I held my new driver’s license and counted the years… in 2008, I will turn 30 years old. Where would I be then? I started exercising at a local health club, attempting to alter my life’s course. Nonetheless, obtaining a true sense of fitness was still elusive. Roughly a year later, I became determined to master my physique. I realized it’s the inherent right of every able-bodied person to create a muscular and lean physical stature. My fortitude was no frivolous New Year’s resolution. It was similar to a hunting dog after finally finding a sought out scent.

I grabbed magazines and books – then, researched online resources and medical abstracts. For a kid who formerly hated to read, I couldn’t get enough. I read about physiology and nutrition, as it relates to altering body composition. I began to understand how the human body’s metabolic complexities tied together. Above all, I was learning a central concept: being out of shape is a choice, not a requirement. The human body is designed to be a cross-trained athlete, certainly not weak and flabby. As it loses cardiovascular health and physical strength, it readily becomes tired and diseased. Applying progressive resistance training and making proper food selections will promote greater physical and mental fitness. You only get one body in this life, you better enjoy it.

In 2018, I will turn 40. At that point, I will continue to disconnect myself from the cliché, “I used to be strong and lean too.” After 10 more years of training, I will have graduated to a new level of knowledge and understanding; a new level of conditioning. In the words of writer Henry David Thoreau, “none are so old as those who have outlived enthusiasm.”

But where I am I headed right now? I am at the point where I can bulk up and hope to add 5 more pounds of muscle before cutting up again. I have to cut before I bulk. If the body’s muscle-to-fat ratio is leading to a soft belly and hanging love handles, it’s time to lean up again before bulking. Gilbert Forbes, from the University of Rochester School of Medicine and Dentistry in New York, demonstrated changes in body weight induced by nutrition, whether negative or positive, comprise both lean (fat-free) and fat mass. Forbes examined how body fat content influences body composition responses to nutrition and exercise. In experiments of at least three weeks in duration, he found weight gain in thin people comprises 60-70 percent lean tissue, where as obese gain 30-40 percent. The relative contribution of muscle acquisition during weight gain is related to body fat.

I was just talking about training-induced inroads in performance with a friend last night. There comes a point where you kinda push your genetic potential - where catabolism keeps exceeding anabolism. This occurs as we get older but also as you get more advanced in training and build stronger neural pathways for proper motor control and training intensity - coupled with a significant amount of force-producing muscle - your training starts to really pound on you, physiologically and psychologically. At that point, many say you should cut back your volume and frequency some more... this is where I am at now - trying to keep pushing past plateaus and stay progressive after over 13 years of this.

My wife wants me to stop and just maintain myself at a lean condition, but I enjoy the challenges of trying to add more muscle mass so much that maintaining seems too easy... it's not in my nature to stop and maintain - I like to learn, apply and create.

Anyway, those last pics went from 248 down to 227 (carb loaded). This next set should illustrate 255 down to 235ish...

[missjane]

For those asking me about my carb cycling via NHE, I've got my book here with me at work today for more exact rations. Here's what I do:

Low carb days: less than 25 grams of carbs per meal -- 30-60 grams total per day, moderate to high fat, protein 15-50 grams per meal with no limit (I try for 1 gr per lb of body weight)

Carb load days: less than 30 grams of carbs during the day, moderate fat and protein. On LAST meal of the day....carb load occurs: greater than 40 grams of carbs, with no upper limit. Carbs should be 70% starchy carbs. Fat on this last meal is less than 20 grams and protein less than 20 grams.

My schedule would look like this:

MON - low carb
TUES - low carb
WED - carb load
THUR - low carb
FRI - low carb
SAT - low carb
SUN - carb load

Again, this is following Rob Faigin's Natural Hormonal Enhancement and this is just a VERY brief synopsis -- the book is very detailed and technical.

[Warrior]

Originally Posted by missjane

For those asking me about my carb cycling via NHE, I've got my book here with me at work today for more exact rations. Here's what I do:

Low carb days: less than 25 grams of carbs per meal -- 30-60 grams total per day, moderate to high fat, protein 15-50 grams per meal with no limit (I try for 1 gr per lb of body weight)

Carb load days: less than 30 grams of carbs during the day, moderate fat and protein. On LAST meal of the day....carb load occurs: greater than 40 grams of carbs, with no upper limit. Carbs should be 70% starchy carbs. Fat on this last meal is less than 20 grams and protein less than 20 grams.

My schedule would look like this:

MON - low carb
TUES - low carb
WED - carb load
THUR - low carb
FRI - low carb
SAT - low carb
SUN - carb load

Again, this is following Rob Faigin's Natural Hormonal Enhancement and this is just a VERY brief synopsis -- the book is very detailed and technical.

The issues I see in this: there are no training guidelines... and... if you deplete yourself, it takes much longer than an evening refeed to super compensate glycogen - so you keep wearing down your energy stores. One can only hope to over compensate within 24-36 hours but that's where timing the nutrients around specfic training sessions helps out.

My 14-day split goes like this:

============FIRST HALF============
Day 1: Moderate Carb: 60 minutes of cardio; abdominal/calve training.
Day 2: Low Carb: Chest and Back Giant Sets; 30-45 minutes of cardio
Day 3: Low Carb: Quads and Hamstring Giant Sets; 30-45 minutes of cardio
Day 4: Low Carb: 45-60 minutes of cardio
Day 5: Preload Carb: Full-Body Depletion Routine; 30-45 minutes of cardio
Day 6: Low Carb: No Training
Day 7: Low Carb: Delts, Triceps and Biceps Giant Sets; 30-45 minutes of cardio

===========SECOND HALF===========
Day 8: Low Carb: Cardio-only; 60 minutes of cardio; abdominal/calve training.
Day 9: Low Carb: Chest and Back Tension Training; 30-45 minutes of cardio
Day 10: Low Carb: Quads and Hamstring Tension Training (w/abs, calves); 30-45 minutes of cardio
Day 11: Low Carb: 50-60 minutes of cardio
Day 12: Preload Carb: Full-Body Depletion Routine; 30-45 minutes of cardio
Day 13: Carb Load: No Training
Day 14: High Carb: Full-Body Loaded Routine; 20 minutes of cardio

[Natalia]

Originally Posted by Warrior

I grabbed magazines and books – then, researched online resources and medical abstracts. For a kid who formerly hated to read, I couldn’t get enough. I read about physiology and nutrition, as it relates to altering body composition. I began to understand how the human body’s metabolic complexities tied together. Above all, I was learning a central concept: being out of shape is a choice, not a requirement. The human body is designed to be a cross-trained athlete, certainly not weak and flabby. As it loses cardiovascular health and physical strength, it readily becomes tired and diseased. Applying progressive resistance training and making proper food selections will promote greater physical and mental fitness. You only get one body in this life, you better enjoy it.

Sounds so familiar - it's giving me goose bumps! Anyway, Warrior, wishing you to succeed in your current and future goals!


p.s. Warrior, I am looking at your 14 day cycle and realizing that I am not woman enough yet to do THAT

[wilburaz]

Hi Natalia! Okay, these are going to seem like silly questions, so I apologize in advance. You said you are going to follow the 7-day routine, so then, how often do you cycle? Until you receive desired results? Then what...do you just go back to a maintenance plan that is higher in carbs? Just curious what a long term plan would entail. Your transformation is amazing and inspiring! You rock!

[Natalia]

Originally Posted by wilburaz

Hi Natalia! Okay, these are going to seem like silly questions, so I apologize in advance. You said you are going to follow the 7-day routine, so then, how often do you cycle? Until you receive desired results? Then what...do you just go back to a maintenance plan that is higher in carbs? Just curious what a long term plan would entail. Your transformation is amazing and inspiring! You rock!

no silly question...we're all at a different point in our fitness journey

I'll have 6 or 8 weeks of UD2 (Ulimate Diet 2.0 by Lyle McDonald). Right now I'm finishing week 4. Then I'll take a week's break eating at maintenance. If I am satisfied with the amount of fat shed I'll probably just hang at maintenance till fall. If I feel like I am not sufficiently cut I'll repeat the 6 week round of UD2.

As far as future goals, Warrior said so very well:

“Without continual growth and progress, such words as improvement, achievement, and success have no meaning,” said Benjamin Franklin, statesman and journalist. Bodybuilding is a journey into physical growth and progression. It’s a long expedition of learning and applying. Accumulating greater musculature requires ongoing motivation – a relentless obsession to surpass previous fitness thresholds in the midst of daily distractions."

[missjane]

Originally Posted by Warrior

The issues I see in this: there are no training guidelines... and... if you deplete yourself, it takes much longer than an evening refeed to super compensate glycogen - so you keep wearing down your energy stores. One can only hope to over compensate within 24-36 hours but that's where timing the nutrients around specfic training sessions helps out.

My 14-day split goes like this:

============FIRST HALF============
Day 1: Moderate Carb: 60 minutes of cardio; abdominal/calve training.
Day 2: Low Carb: Chest and Back Giant Sets; 30-45 minutes of cardio
Day 3: Low Carb: Quads and Hamstring Giant Sets; 30-45 minutes of cardio
Day 4: Low Carb: 45-60 minutes of cardio
Day 5: Preload Carb: Full-Body Depletion Routine; 30-45 minutes of cardio
Day 6: Low Carb: No Training
Day 7: Low Carb: Delts, Triceps and Biceps Giant Sets; 30-45 minutes of cardio

===========SECOND HALF===========
Day 8: Low Carb: Cardio-only; 60 minutes of cardio; abdominal/calve training.
Day 9: Low Carb: Chest and Back Tension Training; 30-45 minutes of cardio
Day 10: Low Carb: Quads and Hamstring Tension Training (w/abs, calves); 30-45 minutes of cardio
Day 11: Low Carb: 50-60 minutes of cardio
Day 12: Preload Carb: Full-Body Depletion Routine; 30-45 minutes of cardio
Day 13: Carb Load: No Training
Day 14: High Carb: Full-Body Loaded Routine; 20 minutes of cardio

No, like I said....just a BRIEF synopsis from the book of the carb cycling for NHE (only because someone asked about the nutrition). There's MUCH more to it. The book is over 350 pages and there are definitely training guidelines, as well...very specific, in fact. It's a good read.