I've done Natural Hormonal Enhancement (NHE) and carb cycled and now I am doing TNT and I definitely have seen improvements in my HDL and LDL and triglycerides. In fact, at our health screening here at work, my blood work was the best of anyone else! I'm certainly a fan of carb cycling.
I don't track calories right now. When I carb cycle, I stay very low during my low carb cycle and then on my carb up days, I limit my fat and protein and go way up on my carbs (no particular limit).
Someone competent needs to evaluate where you're at, create a specialized diet and training plan. Your progress will need to be evaluated on at least 2 week baisis...and changes made as you go. Having a personal trainer/nutritionist also provides countability.
I'm not really planning to use a trainer or nutritionist, but I work in medical fitness and have a lot of training and education, as do my coworkers (whom I regularly tap into for their knowledge and expertise in everything from squat form to eating plans).
I understand the recommendation you made, but I also noticed you did not use a trainer yourself... I was just hoping you'd elaborate a little more on your own journey, like when you decided to use HIIT or switch to more metabolic workouts, your own use of SS cardio (did you do it while doing Alwyn's workouts, or did you cut that out?) and how that all fit together, etc etc... thanks!
When you guys carb cycle, how low and high do you go in carbs and calories?
It’s about creating an energy deficit while depleting your body of carbs/glycogen. In other words, more activity means you can eat more. But don’t just starve yourself, you need activity to push out the glycogen and oxidize released fats. So low intensity and long endurance training is needed to keep things humming along. Strength training too, obviously.
What I usually do while depleting: eat nuts to fill in between meals (not peanuts, a legume, but nuts; such as pistachios, almonds and cashews). The nuts are the first thing I start to decrease as the diet moves along – that and increasing cardio sessions. While depleting, diet is strictly meats, eggs, seafood, green veggies (no root veggies like carrots, potatoes or yams!), onions, mushrooms… even mozzarella cheese as a garnishment.
During carb loads I eat a lot – so much I fill out and feel strong the next day. In fact, if I don’t take in enough water, a dry carb load can cause serious cramping during a power workout. I am usually sick of food by the time the carb load is exhausted and welcome a return to depletion.
Carb loading is where men and women will differ some… you’ll need to play with the total calories you can take in. But trust me, it tends to be a lot. Perhaps Natalia can fill us in on how high she took her carb loads.
When your body is fully depleted, it will shift focus on replenishment before fat gain. So you are able to basically overeat during a carb load and still lose fat. Studies suggest that the first 12 hours are actually really difficult to gain fat – after that, its best to stick to high-carb, low fat food choices until you return to depleting again.
Again, its all about keeping a training log and maintaining an expected fat loss tempo - each week you should expect to shave off a routine amount of bodyweight. Since your weight will change a lot, it's best to weigh in during the same phase - I like to judge weight changes after carb loading but I do track them daily to monitor fluctuations. If I notice I sudden increases while deplteing - something went wrong... poor food choice, salty meal, something. While deplting your bodyweight should consistently drop...
I was just hoping you'd elaborate a little more on your own journey
it was a long and lonely road....Could have been a lot shorted if I had a competent guidence and support by my side.
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like when you decided to use HIIT or switch to more metabolic workouts
I did everything by Alwyn's book (NROL4W) from stage 1-3 including his HIIT prescription. When I gained sufficient muscle mass I decided to find a way to shed the lard. And stumbled upon UD2 through Warrior's site. That program outline diet as well and training. So, that was the end of NROL4W for me.
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your own use of SS cardio (did you do it while doing Alwyn's workouts, or did you cut that out?) and how that all fit together, etc etc... thanks!
Didn't do any SS cardio while on Alwyn's plan. There was no need for that, because my main goal was to gain mass.
Carb loading is where men and women will differ some… you’ll need to play with the total calories you can take in. But trust me, it tends to be a lot. Perhaps Natalia can fill us in on how high she took her carb loads.
..
it seems that a successful carb load will depend on your insulin sensitivity.
I personally find that I am insulin-resistant....After large carb intake I tend to get tired and sleepy as opposed to energized. So, I do not 'go to town' on my carb loads. "The Ultimate Diet 2.0" book by Lyle McDonald goes onto all the numbers and stuff. I don't get paid for promoting it, y the way, but it's a great investment.
This thread turned into something completely different. Someone's gotta start a dedicated thread to carb cycling.
I want to get stronger, but I also have fat to lose. I want to drop my bf% about 6-8%. I don't want to go back to what I was doing for years with little or no success - SS and aerobic interval cardio, lifting (pretty heavy but not metabolically taxing like Alwyn's workouts) and calorie restriction (between 1200-1500 cal/day and always mad at myself for being hungry and then ending up snacking at night).
6%-8% bodyfat is sub-essential for a woman according to the internet.
6%-8% bodyfat is sub-essential for a woman according to the internet.
IANAD
I don't want to drop TO 6-8% - yikes! In fact, I've always understood that for women, essential bf% is closer to 10-12%... Let me rephrase - I want to drop 6-8% bodyfat off of where I am now!!!!
Natalia - thanks for answering my questions... I think I'll stick with NROL4W for at least one more stage and see where I am... I like the program a lot. It's just the fat girl inside me who gets scared pretty easily...
Thanks Warrior and Nat for sharing on carb cycling. It is very interesting. Like Natalia I too find that too many carbs just makes me sleepy and lethargic. I have been doing a very modified version of carb cycling but find that the day after a higher carb day, I am just too uncomfortably bloated and dozing at work. The same pair of pants will be fine one day and tight the next. It reminds me of my Atkins days 10 years ago when a piece of bread would blow me up. I thought that I have since become much more moderate about watching carbs but with the cycling notice that I am still pretty sensitive to them, especially early in the day which is when it's probably best to have them in terms of fueling metabolism.
In any case, I am in Stage 3 and not losing any fat so far, so I am always eager to hear others' experiences. Thanks.
Oops, my manners - thanks to MissJane too! With the recent discussion of oxidation rates, I wonder if your ability to go higher carb and lower p/f on cycle days means you are a slower oxidizer. I would be on my couch asleep for 3 hours! In fact, the last time I gave in to a craving for a pastry in the morning was four and a half years ago. I remember distinctly bc I had to go home from work early to force a cardio session and then crashed on my couch and let it wear off. I decided from there it simply wasn't practical for me to have those kinds of cheats.
1) restricting calories like crazy and doing tons of volume of SS cardio
or
2) lifting heavy and doing intervals while eating a lot more food
There's a happy medium in between the two.
You can rely on lifting, moderate calorie deficits, and moderate to low amounts of "metabolic work". You just have to keep those three factors in balance. The more high-intensity activity, the more the need to eat.
You just need to establish a net calorie balance in order to decrease fat mass. Nobody here is suggesting that you drop calories as low as you can stand and sit on the treadmill for 2 hours a day.
There's a point of moderation between all these variables.
You have to stop thinking of it as an either/or thing.
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I don't track calories right now. When I carb cycle, I stay very low during my low carb cycle and then on my carb up days, I limit my fat and protein and go way up on my carbs (no particular limit).
Msjane, I know you said you don't track calories but just to get a grip on this whole carb cycling thing would this be a general example of wht you do?
low carb days you may do 50 gr. prot./30 gr. carb./30 gr. fat
carb up days 50 gr. carb./30 gr. prot./20 gr. fat ?????
just a little confused.
__________________ "Don't ever give up on a dream due to the amount of time it will take to achieve it. The time will pass anyway."--Russ Ebsen
1) restricting calories like crazy and doing tons of volume of SS cardio
or
2) lifting heavy and doing intervals while eating a lot more food
There's a happy medium in between the two.
You can rely on lifting, moderate calorie deficits, and moderate to low amounts of "metabolic work". You just have to keep those three factors in balance. The more high-intensity activity, the more the need to eat.
You just need to establish a net calorie balance in order to decrease fat mass. Nobody here is suggesting that you drop calories as low as you can stand and sit on the treadmill for 2 hours a day.
There's a point of moderation between all these variables.
You have to stop thinking of it as an either/or thing.
Thanks - you hit on the exact issue for me - WHERE is that balance? If it's not either/or, where is the point of moderation for me? I'm struggling with how much of what to include...
If I stick exactly to NROL4W, will I lose fat? Not that gaining muscle is bad, but do I need to pick one OR the other, or can I focus on getting strong (or at least staying strong) and getting that increased RMR plus the metabolic work to get the fat off too? I don't want to go back to SS cardio - I much prefer to get it over with quickly (albeit painfully) with HIIT. But if that's going to drive my appetite up too high, then ????
I don't know how much I should actually eat -- I did the calculations and got numbers, but I know that's just an estimate. Do I trust what my body says it wants (hunger-guided eating, as long as it's eating clean and hitting within the guidelines of my total macros) or should I be ok with staying hungry just to hit a certain daily caloric goal number (like 1600 calories)?
So... can anyone help me figure out the balance? I have the information, but I'm struggling with applying it in my own life.
Thanks - you hit on the exact issue for me - WHERE is that balance? If it's not either/or, where is the point of moderation for me? I'm struggling with how much of what to include...
If I stick exactly to NROL4W, will I lose fat? Not that gaining muscle is bad, but do I need to pick one OR the other, or can I focus on getting strong (or at least staying strong) and getting that increased RMR plus the metabolic work to get the fat off too? I don't want to go back to SS cardio - I much prefer to get it over with quickly (albeit painfully) with HIIT. But if that's going to drive my appetite up too high, then ????
I'm trying to think of how to explain this.
Your metabolic rate is simply not going to swing very much in either direction. Studies on metabolic "damage" (lol) have shown that at worst, after long-term starvation, you're looking at about 30% off the baseline.
Likewise, exercise and dietary excess don't raise RMR *that* much higher.
The point is, activity isn't going to magically burn off fat just because you're doing more activity. The body still has to be in an energy deficit, and for most people, it'll be easier to just eat less than it would be to eat more with higher activity.
Your'e still looking at it as a binary on/off thing. It's a continuum.
If you're eating in a 20% deficit, you can get away with a lot more than eating in a 50-60% deficit.
Likewise, if you're doing HIIT work 2-3x/week along with a heavy lifting program, you're going to need to eat a *lot* of food, and I'd almost bet that the food intake will be more than any metabolic effects you'd get from the exercise.
It's not a matter of doing X or Y like they're discrete programs that you have to choose between.
Basically you have to pick a priority-- are you after fat loss or muscle/strength gains?
If you're after fat loss, then eat in a mild deficit, say 20% off your maintenance calories, throw in a decent lifting routine, a day of HIIT, and 2-3 sessions of lighter cardio for around 30-40 minutes.
What I'm arguing against here is the idea that if you do enough high-intensity activity, you'll just magically get lean -- and it's not the case.
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I don't know how much I should actually eat -- I did the calculations and got numbers, but I know that's just an estimate. Do I trust what my body says it wants (hunger-guided eating, as long as it's eating clean and hitting within the guidelines of my total macros) or should I be ok with staying hungry just to hit a certain daily caloric goal number (like 1600 calories)?
Hunger guided clean eating will just make you gain weight. Self-reported dieting will just lead to over-eating. It'd be better to have calorie and macro targets to shoot for.
The entire point of a diet for fat loss is that you're going to be hungry.
Again, pick a goal. Do you want to get bigger and stronger? Do you want to be able to run sprints? Or do you want to lose fat?
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Natalia, thanks so much for your detailed response to my questions. I appreciate the time you took to answer.
Looking at your two pictures, I see what you mean. When I went on a low cal diet/good lifting program with a personal trainer, my body look a bit like your top picture (mushy as you put it). I kind of thought it was my skin being too lose and not keeping up with the fat loss.
I feel a bit like Bysti as well, confused with the nutrition issue. For sure I love being stronger and ''buff'', and I've never been a cardio queen so working out w/weights will always be a part of my life style.
I think I need to consider macros than cals, but my body, in my experience, reacts pretty slowly to any change, so it's not always easy for me to see what's working and what's not, plus I'll admit I am not, and honestly don't want to be anal about tracking every gram of what I put in my mouth for months and months.
I've learned with NROLW that I did not eat enough protein. And I know when I don't do well, it's probably not enough cals and too high on carbs, I'm learning.
Your metabolic rate is simply not going to swing very much in either direction. Studies on metabolic "damage" (lol) have shown that at worst, after long-term starvation, you're looking at about 30% off the baseline.
Likewise, exercise and dietary excess don't raise RMR *that* much higher.
The point is, activity isn't going to magically burn off fat just because you're doing more activity. The body still has to be in an energy deficit, and for most people, it'll be easier to just eat less than it would be to eat more with higher activity.
Your'e still looking at it as a binary on/off thing. It's a continuum.
If you're eating in a 20% deficit, you can get away with a lot more than eating in a 50-60% deficit.
Likewise, if you're doing HIIT work 2-3x/week along with a heavy lifting program, you're going to need to eat a *lot* of food, and I'd almost bet that the food intake will be more than any metabolic effects you'd get from the exercise.
It's not a matter of doing X or Y like they're discrete programs that you have to choose between.
Basically you have to pick a priority-- are you after fat loss or muscle/strength gains?
If you're after fat loss, then eat in a mild deficit, say 20% off your maintenance calories, throw in a decent lifting routine, a day of HIIT, and 2-3 sessions of lighter cardio for around 30-40 minutes.
What I'm arguing against here is the idea that if you do enough high-intensity activity, you'll just magically get lean -- and it's not the case.
Thank you again - this is starting to make more sense to me... Perhaps for me, wanting fat loss but not at the expense of strength, NROL4W with ONE day of HIIT is good, and if I want to do more, instead of more HIIT sesions, I should do 30 min of SS (or aerobic interval but not anaerobic) for the extra fat burn without the appetite increase and need for more recovery.
When you say I can get away with more at 20% deficit verus 50-60% deficit, are you saying that because I won't be throwing my body into starvation mode with "only" a 20% deficit?
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Hunger guided clean eating will just make you gain weight. Self-reported dieting will just lead to over-eating. It'd be better to have calorie and macro targets to shoot for.
The entire point of a diet for fat loss is that you're going to be hungry.
Again, pick a goal. Do you want to get bigger and stronger? Do you want to be able to run sprints? Or do you want to lose fat?
Again... this is what I've been trying to figure out. And you're right - when I am hunger-guided, I do gain (or at least I don't lose!). Not 100% sure about the "self-reported dieting" - do you mean dieting without tracking actual calories or macros? If so, then yes, agreed - saying "I didn't eat that much" without knowing what "that much" is doesn't help me either.
Which leads to picking a calorie range based on the maintenance formula, sticking to clean foods and my macros (still going with 40/30/30 as my goal) and then perhaps cutting 100 calories if the body fat doesn't want to go away...
I know this seems like it took hitting me over the head with a sledgehammer, but it's helped me a LOT to break it all down and talk it out here... I'm not sure I didn't end up in the same exact place, but at least I feel more comfortable with it. I know I'll still have to tweak it all as I go, but I think I'm on the right track...
Msjane, I know you said you don't track calories but just to get a grip on this whole carb cycling thing would this be a general example of wht you do?
low carb days you may do 50 gr. prot./30 gr. carb./30 gr. fat
carb up days 50 gr. carb./30 gr. prot./20 gr. fat ?????
just a little confused.
When I am cycling with NHE, I am high carb every 3 and 4 days. On the high carb days, I stick with lots of carbs -- fruit, pasta, potatoes,etc. Little protein and fat.
On the low carb days, I am under 20g of carbs, way high on fat and protein. Probably a ratio of 60/30/10, for fat, protein, carbs, respectively. WAY more than 50g of carbs.
When I am cycling with NHE, I am high carb every 3 and 4 days. On the high carb days, I stick with lots of carbs -- fruit, pasta, potatoes,etc. Little protein and fat.
On the low carb days, I am under 20g of carbs, way high on fat and protein. Probably a ratio of 60/30/10, for fat, protein, carbs, respectively. WAY more than 50g of carbs.
okay I think I see what you're doing
high carb 3-4 days in a row then low carb 3-4 days(???)
So I guess you keep within your maintenance cals. just switch your ratio of grams around for carb. prot. and fat
And you say this has helped with your cholesterol? That's great a no- pill fix
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In fact, I've always understood that for women, essential bf% is closer to 10-12%... Let me rephrase - I want to drop 6-8% bodyfat off of where I am now!!!!
could you clarify a little?
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