I can't tell you the "right" amount - I was under the impression that it's very stressful for your body to do HIIT more than 3 days/week BUT sometimes we need to stress our bodies for a short period of time while working towards a specific goal...
I do HIIT 2-3 times/week - mostly it depends on my schedule and if I can fit it in, but I would love to consistently get in 3/week. If I have to choose between lifting and HIIT though, the lifting always comes first.
I couldn't imagine doing HIIT 5 times a week. In my opinion, if you can do it that much, you probably aren't doing it correctly. That being said, I'm sure there is a reason Alwyn suggested it in that program, and I am not an expert by any means.
If you are doing HIIT correctly your body really isn't going to want to do it more then 2 or 3 times a week.
I think this whole discussion fails on semantics. In this forum (the NR4W forum, not JP's as a whole) we've really used the term HIIT very loosely to include several varieties of intervals. The recommendations to not do HIIT more than 2-3 time per week refer true HIIT, where the interval is very short and very intense. (There have been a few discussions of this topic in the main training forum). If, however, when you say HIIT you really mean 1 minute intervals followed by 2 minute recoveries, well, your body can most likely handle that more often.
Also remember that an individual's specific work capacity and recovery ability will determine how much work their own body can handle in a given time period. Different people will have differing levels of ability and no blanket advice (like never do HIIT more than three times a week) can be appropriate for everyone.
What is true HIIT? When is the term used appropriately? The answer depends on who's talking, and I'm not making a stand for any particular definition of HIIT. I'm just pointing out that this lack of clarification of terms creates this kind of confusion about the advice we read.
what would you consider a short very intense interval as opposed to the 2 minute recovery 1 minute sprint?
I posted in a previous thread a little about this but would it be appropriate for me to do the 2 recovery 1 sprint for five days (replace those T Th steady state cardio with these HIIT sessions). Would that make them less effective eventually? If my body starts to get used to these how would I up the intensity? right now I do them on a treadmill ( 2 minutes at 4.4 and one at about 9.5) and they work well but I'm sure I will need to mix it up sometimes to keep challenging myself since that is the point of the HIIT right?
Thanks for posting the question, and thanks for answering! Great stuff, if a bit imposing
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There's so many answers to that question. I remember reading this: http://www.cs.unm.edu/~wneumann/file...lla_cardio.pdf and wondering ... WHY? But, I after months of LD running with no body compostion changes, I guess I'll now ask: Why NOT?
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what would you consider a short very intense interval as opposed to the 2 minute recovery 1 minute sprint?
There are so many opinions on HIIT - I've read a ton of varieties. The original study, I believe, had elite cyclists on bikes doing 20 second intervals with 10 seconds "rest" - the whole workout was about 5 minutes long (I may be remembering slightly off here, but that was the gist).
Personally, I do 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off, for 8 minutes (not including my warmup and cooldown - I usually do 8 minutes each, for a total of 24 minutes on the machine). Mostly I use the stairmaster on "manual" which works well for me because I can make it go up and down in speed very rapidly and it KICKS MY BUTT. Sometimes after the first 4 or 5 intervals, I take 40 or 45 seconds rest instead of 30, or I have to cut my 30 seconds of intense interval down to 25 or even 20. I always get my HR above 90% of my estimated max (sometimes within a beat of 100% max).
I think as long as you're doing anaerobic intervals, you're doing well. It can vary by fitness level and what mode of exercise you're doing (I prefer a machine that sets the pace for me versus something like an elliptical where I might "slack" if my concentration slips and not go full intensity the entire interval). I also do intervals sometimes on the treadmill, but I don't love it because it takes a couple seconds to speed up. I go full-out, then "jump" onto the siderail until it's slow enough - not ideal, but I make it work. I also do sprints on the track, but I'm afraid of tripping during a sprint when I'm tired and doing a face-plant (I'm not known for my grace!).
Just how I do it - I don't think there's only one right way. See how your results are, and go from there.
Speaking of HIIT, I see some people are doing their HIIT BEFORE weight training (whatever their version of HIIT might be) on the same day. I thought this was a big no-no. Comments?
I am one of those folks and am interested in hearing this answer. Lifting kicks my ass so cannot do HIT after lifting. Running doesn't do that so much to me even HIT running.
Yesterday I did 25 min of HIT, 3.5% incline (7mph, 3mph) 1 min on and 1 min off. My HR got up to 169. After this I was charged and ready to lift. Does this mean I did not do HIT correctly?
HIIT is supposed to kick your butt enough that you don't want to do anything afterwards (except cough up a lung...) It is my understanding that if you do cardio (HIIT or steady state), it should be done after weight training or on your off days. If you do cardio first, it depletes all the glycogen in your muscles before you even get to lift any weights. Your muscles are then too tired to put forth the effort required for an effective weight lifting session. And as rixatrix mentioned in another thread, HIIT after weights is also helpful in flushing out lactic acid from your muscles.
And that again comes down the use of the term HIIT. I am also one of the people who is considering doing intervals before weight-lifting. I make a distinction that I am not doing HIIT because I don't intend to do anything that makes me want to cough up a lung on a regular basis. However, since I know that my discomfort zone is different from others, I don't have an issue when I read someone's intervals and the description doesn't match what I think HIIT is supposed to be.
But I think the comment that your muscles are then too tired to put forth the effort required for an effective weight-lifting session is a generalization (especially for an individual workout session) that does not take into account person's goal, the intervals that are being performed, and the variables that may be used to determine progression.
Just my 2 cents.
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Reason: lung not lunge
I've always understood that you train first for whatever your goal is. So a marathoner would lift (if they lifted at all) after their run, but someone building muscle would lift first. I can't imagine doing anything after HIIT (or even doing my HIIT after lifting on this program!).
I agree with Luv2Lift's answer - HIIT is a great compliment to lifting if you are hoping to burn fat - it keeps the metabolism stoked and burning, moves the muscles and helps reduce ongoing soreness after lifting (not lactic acid - that is gone within an hour of lifting). But HIIT or cardio of any kind depletes glycogen and your ability to really put your muscles through a maxed-out workout. If your goal is to build muscle, then I wouldn't suggest more than a warm-up (like Lou discusses in the book) before lifting.
Well I can't seem to kick my ass hard enough that I don't want to do anything after HIT. Even on hill sprints. I tear up the hill as fast as I can and walk back down and do this for 7 times or 20 min. I mean it is only 20 minutes. I am a distance runner and am used to doing 3 hours of cardio. In the USMC we did physical stuff all day long. I know the intesity of HIT is different but even so after a 20 min run of any sort I am just warmed up for lifting. Of course I have to take a few minutes rest but once I've had that time I feel like I want to really hit the weights.
The converse however is not true. I tried doing my HIT after my lifting and I just cannot bring myself to do it. Lifting does kick my ass. Perhaps this is because my body is so used to running and cardio and so new to lifting? I don't know. I just know that it doesn't work for me to do them in the prescribed order.
Of course I have to take a few minutes rest but once I've had that time I feel like I want to really hit the weights.
I do my "HIIT" (or whatever it is) at either 30s on/1:30 rest or 1 min on/2min rest, and I do it on my in between days most of the time. But I often find that my endorphins are on HIGH the days I do HIIT. I'm energetic, cheerful, and just generally sort of giddy - usually for at least the entire morning after HIIT. So I can understand why you would be ready to hit the weights. Do you drink anything in between when you do HIIT before lifting?
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Well I can't seem to kick my ass hard enough that I don't want to do anything after HIT. Even on hill sprints. I tear up the hill as fast as I can and walk back down and do this for 7 times or 20 min. I mean it is only 20 minutes. I am a distance runner and am used to doing 3 hours of cardio. In the USMC we did physical stuff all day long. I know the intesity of HIT is different but even so after a 20 min run of any sort I am just warmed up for lifting. Of course I have to take a few minutes rest but once I've had that time I feel like I want to really hit the weights.
The converse however is not true. I tried doing my HIT after my lifting and I just cannot bring myself to do it. Lifting does kick my ass. Perhaps this is because my body is so used to running and cardio and so new to lifting? I don't know. I just know that it doesn't work for me to do them in the prescribed order.
If you're in good condition this may well be the case. The ordering of lifting -> cardio is in place because of fatigue elements. As a rule, lifting will usually impact cardio less than the opposite order.
However, if you're in good condition this may not always be the case, likewise depending on the kind of cardio work In fact, sprinters will routinely do their acceleration and speed work before a lifting session.
This really ties back to what Lisa said about HIIT being ill-defined. People tend to just think of it in monolithic terms, but "interval cardio training" has gradations of intensity and effort just like lifting weights does.
HIIT, strictly, is defined as maximal efforts with limited/brief rest periods specifically to tax anaerobic metabolism, but there's other ways of doing intervals with longer rests or less exertion in the work interval. I tend to use what's called extensive tempo runs, which are intervals but with less rests/less effort, with my girls because I find pure HIIT to be too much if done regularly, as an example. Speed work done by sprinters will rarely go more than 30-60 yards, with very long rests to ensure high quality on each attempt.
Short, fast, brief intervals can have the same kind of effect on the body as lifting weights. If it's not fatiguing you too much, this can actually exploit the same kind of post-activation potentiation effect as heavy weights. It's known that doing jumps and such before lifting has that effect, and this isn't terribly different.
In other words, recall the key principle of exercise: there's only guidelines, no absolutes. If this order works for you, do it.
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HIIT, strictly, is defined as maximal efforts with limited/brief rest periods specifically to tax anaerobic metabolism, but there's other ways of doing intervals with longer rests or less exertion in the work interval.
Very good point. I was thinking of the question in terms of more traditional max-exertion / minimal rest HIIT. If people are defining this in a broader way (intense intervals but not maximum effort and/or longer rest periods) then it would change my answer. If I did max intervals with longer rests, or if I didn't totally max-out on the intervals, I could see being able to lift afterwards, although I still think it would take away from my overall ability to lift. But that's me, and everyone is different. When I do HIIT (in my version of 30 sec on / 30 sec recovery maxed-out intervals), I can't even think straight when I'm done - no way could I do an Alwyn workout - or anything else at all!
You're right, and with that kind of exertion, you'd absolutely be taxed for lifting after.
In kfisher's case, it sounds like two things in play: 1) she's got a good work capacity, so she won't be so beat up from the cardio and 2) it sounds like she's not necessarily doing the cardio to a point of extreme fatigue, with more speed/explosive type emphasis and more recovery between each set.
If that's the case, and she's noticing it doesn't tire her out, I don't see a real problem.
Just bear in mind that people w/o her circumstances won't necessarily see the same result.
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I've always understood that you train first for whatever your goal is. So a marathoner would lift (if they lifted at all) after their run, but someone building muscle would lift first. I can't imagine doing anything after HIIT (or even doing my HIIT after lifting on this program!).
I was always taught to train in descending order of required neuro-muscular coordination (eg skill, then speed, then power, then strength, then energy system, then static flexibility) which supports the same conclusion but for a different reason.
I was always taught to train in descending order of required neuro-muscular coordination (eg skill, then speed, then power, then strength, then energy system, then static flexibility) which supports the same conclusion but for a different reason.
It's both, really. You need to keep fatigue from element to element in mind, but goals are still prioritized.
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You're right, and with that kind of exertion, you'd absolutely be taxed for lifting after.
In kfisher's case, it sounds like two things in play: 1) she's got a good work capacity, so she won't be so beat up from the cardio and 2) it sounds like she's not necessarily doing the cardio to a point of extreme fatigue, with more speed/explosive type emphasis and more recovery between each set.
If that's the case, and she's noticing it doesn't tire her out, I don't see a real problem.
Just bear in mind that people w/o her circumstances won't necessarily see the same result.
I want to explore the number 2 possibility if you don't mind this little divergence. I have tried all sorts of ways to do this in order to get. I have tried various levels of sprint and rest. The last time I did 1 min on and 1 min rest. I used to do HIT without allowing my HR to go down very far but was told that to do proper HIT you have to do a really slowdowned pace from the sprint. So now that is what I do. Heck, I could sprint for 20 minutes folks and still have energy after 15 min recovery for lifting but I am told that is more of a steady state run. I am not really sure how to kick my ass and in HIT and still qualify as HIT. Any suggestions here?
I want to explore the number 2 possibility if you don't mind this little divergence. I have tried all sorts of ways to do this in order to get. I have tried various levels of sprint and rest. The last time I did 1 min on and 1 min rest. I used to do HIT without allowing my HR to go down very far but was told that to do proper HIT you have to do a really slowdowned pace from the sprint. So now that is what I do. Heck, I could sprint for 20 minutes folks and still have energy after 15 min recovery for lifting but I am told that is more of a steady state run. I am not really sure how to kick my ass and in HIT and still qualify as HIT. Any suggestions here?
I wondered if you had tried using a different type of exercise to running for your HIIT? I think when you are very accustomed to an exercise it does become difficult to make it it hard enough especially for very short bursts. I don't run often and I find that if I do 30sec sprints for my HIIT I feel like I have really worked compared to doing the same intensity on an exercise bike which I am a lot more used to. Perhaps you could try doing your intervals on an exercise bike (and maybe working against a lot of resistance with a low cadence rather than pedalling really fast), or you could jump rope for 1min, or I have just done intervals where I jumped over my aerobic step for 1min, rowing machine etc etc - there are lots of possibilities.
I am not really sure how to kick my ass and in HIT and still qualify as HIT. Any suggestions here?
I'll give you my 2cents - if you can maintain whatever you are doing for more than 30-60 seconds, it's not a full-out max effort. It may be an intense interval, but when you say you could "sprint" for 20 minutes straight, you're right - that is steady-state, not a sprint. Your definition of sprint is not the same as mine - for me, sprint in the context of HIIT would be running as fast as I possibly could, until I literally could not go another step at that pace. When I do this in my workouts, I can run for 20-30 seconds before I MUST slow down. Same on the stairmaster for me - I set it at a high enough level that I literally would fall off if I didn't slow it down after 30 seconds.
Remember, HIIT (high intensity interval training) isn't the same as interval training. It is anaerobic - the goal is to tax your body quickly and intensely, before your aerobic energy systems could take over. In this process, you deplete glycogen stores in a similar way to intense weight-lifting. Very different physical process than aerobics, or even aerobic intervals.
I also don't think you need - or want - a long recovery time in true HIIT. What I understood of the original studies was that you want to stay anaerobic, but you can't stay anaerobic for more than approximately 60 seconds, by definition. So you recover SLIGHTLY, and then go again. You're aiming for an intensity level that could not possibly be sustained beyond 30-60 seconds, so you have to slow down and recover - a bit. But then as soon as you can, take it up again for a short interval. The original bike study was 20 seconds up, 10 seconds recover, repeat ad nauseum (literally!).
I'm rambling, but I hope this helps. You sound like an amazing runner. Maybe doing 30 seconds of jump-rope or jump squats or burpees would help you get to that anaerobic HIIT place, since you are so good at running.
I assure you that I when I do HIT I run as fast as I can during the sprint times. Of course I do not always maintain the same speed the whole 1 min when I am not on the tready and of course I did not mean I could run the same speed for 20 min. On Hill sprints often times I am barely moving at all by the time I make it to the top of the hill but I am pushing until I nearly puke and then I go even more and finally the goal is reached and I go back to walk. My HR also tells me that I am pushing really hard. By the time I am doing 20 min of this in fact my HR really doesn't go down during the walk and it seems a heck of a lot like steady state work to me. I really just don't get the benefit that much still.
I think that if you are pretty fit and pretty used to a certain type of exercise that however hard you work in an interval, if you are only doing it 4 times, you can probably recover pretty quickly afterwards. I certainly find that and I am not an elite athlete or anything . It may not mean that you haven't worked hard enough at the time, just that you are very good at recovering. My husband is cycle training for time trials at the moment and for example, his interval programme requires that he does 5 intervals of 2min, followed by 10 intervals of 1min, followed by 10 intervals of 30sec. It follows that he would find doing 4 intervals of 1min relatively easy. I do think the only way round this is to try some exercise that you are not so used to.
I assure you that I when I do HIT I run as fast as I can during the sprint times. Of course I do not always maintain the same speed the whole 1 min when I am not on the tready and of course I did not mean I could run the same speed for 20 min. On Hill sprints often times I am barely moving at all by the time I make it to the top of the hill but I am pushing until I nearly puke and then I go even more and finally the goal is reached and I go back to walk. My HR also tells me that I am pushing really hard. By the time I am doing 20 min of this in fact my HR really doesn't go down during the walk and it seems a heck of a lot like steady state work to me. I really just don't get the benefit that much still.
Karla,
I think that you are I are coming at this from a very similar background in terms of cardio and work capacity. A few years ago, I was perfectly happy to go to the gym with my book and stairmaster for 3 hours (when I wasn't rowing).
I *rarely* am able to get my heart rate up high enough during an all-out interval to meet what is generally considered HIIT. Then again, my resting hr is 42.
Perhaps you could try the rowing machine? Even as a rower, and thus pretty efficient, I am able to tax myself in an all-out, 30" sprint interval.
I consider HIIT to be generally any intervals with a work to rest ratio of 1:1 or 1:.5. Anything else, I consider intervals with varying intensities.
I think that both are beneficial.
To the OP-- If I weren't training for a specific sport, and rather lifting / exercising for health's (and sanity's sake), I would probably schedule my HIIT and interval sessions like this:
day 1- lift + 13' HIIT (2'warm up / cool down + 4' @ 30/30 + 1 minute rest + 4' @30/30)
day 2-- intervals at 90% intensity @ 5'warm up / cool down + 20' of 1' work / 2' rest
day 3-- same as day 1
day 4-- 30-45' cardio steady state (remember, I'm a reformed cardio queen, and I see this as active recovery)
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I wondered if you had tried using a different type of exercise to running for your HIIT? I think when you are very accustomed to an exercise it does become difficult to make it it hard enough especially for very short bursts. I don't run often and I find that if I do 30sec sprints for my HIIT I feel like I have really worked compared to doing the same intensity on an exercise bike which I am a lot more used to. Perhaps you could try doing your intervals on an exercise bike (and maybe working against a lot of resistance with a low cadence rather than pedalling really fast), or you could jump rope for 1min, or I have just done intervals where I jumped over my aerobic step for 1min, rowing machine etc etc - there are lots of possibilities.
If I may offer up a different perspective: why are you considering that being fatigued is the goal?
It might seem counterintuitive, but fat loss/body composition training is one area where avoiding fatigue is to your immense benefit.
I know it gives a lot of feedback, makes you feel like you worked hard and are doing something, but there's a dark side to that.
Fatigue requires adaptation. What you're trying to get out of this, assuming you have no specific performance goals, is pure calorie-wastage. From the sound of it you're quite conditioned, so it's going to be harder for you to really fatigue yourself.
Look at it from another angle. While strength training, you don't necessarily want to do "too much", nor do you want to go "too heavy", because it will take resources -- that a dieting body doesn't have -- to recover from.
Intensive forms of cardio like we're talking about are no different. They're a hard stress on the body that requires adaptation, which in turn requires resources in the form of energy and nutrients. There's also quite a body of evidence showing that large volumes of hard work like this relate very strongly to a systemic inflammation process which can take its toll on your entire body.
For the purposes of dieting, I highly suggest that people take this stress factor into account. The last thing you want to be doing is pushing adaptations and increases in performance. Maintaining, yes, but not necessarily increasing.
Fatigue is more of a necessary and unfortunate side-effect of training for performance, which usually ends up being confused with the end-goal.
For fat/weight loss training, I always suggest methods of training that minimize fatigue as much as possible.
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HIIT: how often?
: 
It is my understanding that if you do cardio (HIIT or steady state), it should be done after weight training or on your off days. If you do cardio first, it depletes all the glycogen in your muscles before you even get to lift any weights. Your muscles are then too tired to put forth the effort required for an effective weight lifting session. And as rixatrix mentioned in another thread, HIIT after weights is also helpful in flushing out lactic acid from your muscles.
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